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  • #21
    I've enjoyed and admired your posts for a long time, but I do believe the one above may be my absolute favorite so far. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
    "I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but why is it that a woman will forgive homicidal behavior in a horse, yet be highly critical of a man for leaving the toilet seat up?" Dave Barry


    • #22
      If actually the USET was deeded the land way back by Beneficial wouldn't you suppose that that $20 million dollar asset would have been listed on financial reports. It would show the USET then with total assets of some $30 million dollars and that's certainly merits some sense of security.

      I also wonder why there would have been talk of them being forced to leave their headquarters when Beneficial sold the land around them. They would have been safe with a deed in their safe.
      http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org


      • #23
        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I've enjoyed and admired your posts for a long time, but I do believe the one above may be my absolute favorite so far.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

        I'm with you Portia... I've met plenty of trainers and riders that I would love to be able to sink a million dollars in horses and send to them... but not to head up or make decisions for a multi-million dollar company. That is a different kind of talent [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
        Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.


        • #24
          Thanks you guys (blushing)!


          • #25
            When will we find out the absolute truth? Possibly never. This entire thing is so convoluted, it will take years to unwind. In the mean time, we once again are stale mated. No one is about to give up or in. So, does that leave us without a team? Or does that allow people to elect a team, you know similar to our voting fiasco in Florida. Like one other poster said, at least there was an outcome. Sorry to be so short about this. But we go over & over the same things. Nothing happens. When an Olympic year occurs, then everyone rallies and rushes to get a team together. We are still left with the same problems. Maybe, we should just not have a team for the Olympics, once, then we might get this ironed out. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif[/img]


            • #26
              If in reality the USET does not own it's headquarters and it's position is tenuous wouldn't that be a factor in the decisions of the USOC for choosing an NGB?

              If it were the AHSA that was continued as the NGB, they would I am certain welcome the USET back home without punitive damages.

              At least then the question of Hamilton farm having to be included in the merger agreement would be a non-issue.
              http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org


              • #27
                Wouldn't it be "loverley" if the brains and the brawn could come together. However, while the "brains" are out there practicin' their book learnin' the "brawns" are out there doing the animals that this whole thing is all about. No wonder neither party knows what the other one is about!! I might add, I have met some of the most brilliant business people through my association with horses. They CAN turn into the dumbest human beings when they try to manage their horses like their businesses. Now Heather, you can remove your flame suit.

                In case I've left any doubt, I come down on the side of the USET. The elite riders need representation. As do all other levels. I read the USET's proposal just that way. They will become, in name, the NGB and continue to do what they have always done. The AHSA loses the "title" but continues to do what it has always done. No reinventing the wheel, no one has to learn the ropes.

                As far as the Ted Stevens thing...seems to me that each side's legal team has interpreted the law to their liking. Isn't that what all those hoardes of lawyers who converged on Florida were trying to do? Interpret the law to their advantage? So, does this whole thing come down to who has the better team of lawyers? If history is any indicator, I'll bet the USET is calling Mr. Gonda right now and asking for his attorney's phone number.

                The TRUTH is the people who do this horse and horse show thing day in and day out, year in and year out, know what is best for the industry. They may not have the best idea of how to implement it but THEY are living it.

                We can argue the details of sports acts and who holds a deed and even who is "smarter" but the bottom line is what counts in the end, and that is an organization that has but one goal...gold medals.


                • #28
                  What you say is true and I don't think anyone doubts their ability to field good teams. The Atletic Act however requires a grassroots program and do you seriously think they who are already in the cream level of the top of the bottle have a clue or a smidge of interest in what it takes to get there?

                  I agree with those who say that superior horsemen are rarely superior business people with broad interests. They have become successful because of focus. That focus doesn't include us. There is no doubt that they cannot delegate to another corporation the obligations of an NGB. They can create their own national organization to handle national issues but it has to be within their corporation.

                  The AHSA Plan has in one corporation a combination of what is about international competition and what is about national and zone or district competition. That's no re-inventing the wheel that's just letting everyone do what they do best.
                  http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org


                  • #29
                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If it were the AHSA that was continued as the NGB, they would I am certain welcome the USET back home without punitive damages. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                    OK, the same cynicism showed for the concept of horse people as executives of multi-million dollar companies resurfaces...

                    Sure... they would welcome them back with open, loving arms... And the merger between Daimler and Chrysler was a "merger of equals"...

                    Nope, I suspect there has been too many harsh words in this discussion for such a thing to happen, regardless of who wins.
                    Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.


                    • #30
                      I seriously doubt all of the riders at the top of the tree have forgotten from where they came. I remember, and I am quite sure you do, The Leones riding with Sullivan Davis. And Leslie Howard, why, if I'm not mistaken, she grew up riding at the very place you live. I know quite of a few of these "elite" riders and I can assure you most of them have not forgotten where they came from and many of them, in the off season, teach clinics to the lowest level riders until they are hoarse.


                      • #31
                        Agree with Emmett on this. The riders do know from wence they come from. Haven't met one who hasn't given back, down to the bottom of the ranks, and in some cases for free. Also agree that they do know what is best, but implementing it, is another question. In this day of litigation, many have had to trust owners. This has not always proven correct. Am not on "sides". I think this has a tendency to become an issue, rather than figuring out what is best. One organization cannot address so many specific needs. Our NGB/NF needs to focus attention & money directly. Specifically, bringing the best to the fore front. Getting them to europe, bringing along the best horses, not using them up. This takes enormous amounts of $$$. If they come under the umbrella of the AHSA, who will foot these bills?? Owners? Riders? AHSA?


                        • #32
                          Just to clarify what I think is a slight misunderstanding of my point.

                          It's not that I don't think that the elite riders have "forgotten where they come from"--my point is they've never been here, where I am. I'm sure they remember what it likes to be a hungry talented kid who dreams of riding in the games. But, do they know anything about being a zooming-in-on-30 amateur rider, with a fulltime job, a mortage, family obligations, whose greatest dream is to make it through a CCI* without embaressing herself? Do they understand how hard it is to find a trainer who keeps hours working people can use? Do they understand that most of us can't galavant to Florida when the weather sucks, and we try depserately to keep fit in ice and snow? Do they understand a "schedule" that is determined by money and vaction days rather than what's ideal?

                          I'm not harshing on these elite, nor trying to sound overly whiny about my life--in the scope of the world I am INCREDIBLY fortunate. But the point is, while I support their team efforts, and dutifully send in my proper donations, and cheer and scream for their sucess, I need an orgainzation that can deal with ME. Has some tiny clue about what my needs might be. Thta's all. If I'm selfish for wanting some share of the pie for myslef, then OK, I'm selfish.

                          Also, Ihaven't noticed anyproposal that ignores the notion of fielding top teams. In fact, it seems to be a grerat preoccupation for both groups. So I don't see why one group is believed to have cornered the market on this. Nobody thinks the athletes are unimportant--I just don't don't think I should have to get screwed on their behalf.

                          Finally, and I will admit this is a slightly catty question, everything I hear indicates that the eventers and several of the dressage people are in the AHSA camp. Now, if the USET proposal is really better for the elite athletes, why wouldn't all the FEI level competitors be in their camp? Perhaps because our organization, the USCTA, has made keeping the grassroots and the top connected, and they understand that they are only as strong as the people supporting them.


                          • #33
                            I know exactly where you are coming from and I so agree. I admire your ability to put it so simply and clearly. I dearly wish I had that talent.
                            http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org


                            • #34
                              The county that I am in (and the neighboring county that I pay school taxes to) have their property information online (ex. www.hcad.org - you can look up property by name, address, or account number). Does anyone know the county that the Gladstone property is in and whether they have online info?
                              Nothing says "I love you" like a tractor. (Clydejumper)

                              The reports states, “Elizabeth reported that she accidently put down this pony, ........, at the show.”


                              • #35
                                Right on Heather!!!!!!!!!!


                                • #36


                                  you will see that Mark S is going to the source (one of them at least)

                                  "Mr. Wofford has responded to my email request to join our conversation on this..he may join in later this week so prepare some questions about this issue you would like answered. "

                                  Get your questions together, give'em to Mark and see what replies you receive. Could be interesting.
                                  Nothing says "I love you" like a tractor. (Clydejumper)

                                  The reports states, “Elizabeth reported that she accidently put down this pony, ........, at the show.”


                                  • #37
                                    The real problem with the AHSA/USET mud-wrestling event is the fact that they have forgotten this is about our SPORT STUPID!!! We have two organizations where egos have run off like some badly trained horses and no amount of tack changing or heavier bits seems to work to bring these horses back under control. All of these "summit meetings" are being paid for by the two organizations - US! While large donors certainly help our sport and sponsors are certainly necessary for various compeitions and individual riders - the base in both organization is the members. For far too long there has been NO focus on the members - we have become a silent and neglected commodity. Board members of both organizations treat the average horse person like "yuck" - and this elitist attitude has done more to hurt our sport than to grow it.

                                    We need to grow our sport to stay alive but about all we've grown in the past decade is two top heavy non-profits. Has anyone ever seen 'DETAILED FINANCIALS' for either organization. Note above that the "other" expenditures line item for USET is a huge number. As an ex-accountant - this isn't kosher - Other should be the smalles line item - a catch all for items that don't fit in the big categories. Has anyone ever seen an organization chart for either organization? I don't think a month goes by that we don't read about yet ANOTHER change in personnel at one or the other of these corporations. HOw does this support our sport?? It doesn't. The AHSA wants to take on a horse data base!!! They can't even send me a correct membership card with dates that make sense. I get furious when I see Alan Balch has the time to send nasty letters to even small publications that take exception with his "slash and burn" management style. Doesn't he have more important things to do with his time on OUR DIME?

                                    Countries that are successful in the equestrian sports have tremendous unity in their base of support. Our two large horse organizations pander to a few at the top and walk all over the people who keep the horse industry going. If people didn't need an AHSA membership to compete at horse shows - would they?? I think the answer to that is a great big NO.

                                    One of the new proposals talked about a new organization with a board made up of 30-50 people - are they kidding?? If a camel is horse designed by a committee - how in God's name can a board made up of this many people get ANYTHING DONE? And we can all sit here and list THE SAME OLD, SAME OLD NAMES that will surface for the Board. The SAME OLD SAME OLD NAMES that have gotten us in to this "clash of the titans".

                                    We need an organization that's lean and mean and service oriented. With strict standards, a straight forward business plan, organization chart and mission statement. Perhaps it's time for a clean sweep and a clean house and some FRESH HORSES. After all it is about our sport ....stupid!!! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img]


                                    • #38
                                      Since Farm brokerage is my business ( necessary to support a beginning breeding business ) ---- these are the steps that need to be taken to find out to whom the property is deeded ------------ call the treasurers office of the Somerset county,N.J. court house and find the tax parcel number ( it should have one even if it is tax exempt ) ----------------- call auditors office with this parcel number and find out when the parcel changed hands ------------- call the recorder with this date and names of seller and buyer and you can obtain a copy of the deed ------------- There should even be a copy of survey on record when they subdivided it for the golf course and equestrian facility ------- All of this is a matter of public record ,but most county court houses don't have the staff on hand to put everything online.
                                      Allyn McCracken
                                      Sport Horse Breeder


                                      • #39
                                        Illona, I appreciate your feelings, but one correction -- the base of the AHSA is the members, the base of the USET is the large donors.

                                        Having attended the AHSA Annual Meeting where these issues were discussed, and talked to a lot of people there, the only group that cared about the grassroots was the AHSA. The USET's focus is, and they intend it to remain, only on the elite.

                                        I asked Armand Leone, Jr. at a public forum whether any of the corporate sponsors of the USET had threatened to withdraw if the USET did not maintain its separate identity and become the NGB. He said no, but that certain major individual contributors had done so. I asked him whether the USET had considered that its attempt to take over the NGB status and the resulting controversy might result in a backlash of the USET members against it, resulting in a loss of membership and contributions from the grassroots. That somehow led to him explaining that the way the USET budget works is to have the board members pull out their checkbooks and make up the shortfall at the end of every year.

                                        He never answered my question whether they cared if there might be a backlash by the members.

                                        [This message was edited by Portia on Jan. 26, 2001 at 01:53 PM.]
                                        "I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but why is it that a woman will forgive homicidal behavior in a horse, yet be highly critical of a man for leaving the toilet seat up?" Dave Barry


                                        • #40
                                          IlonaE "DETAILED FINANCIALS" were requested on numerous occasions. You see how far that went....