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the "hunters lay" "duck" "sprawl yourself on it's neck" 2-point

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  • #81
    Originally posted by LookinSouth View Post


    Correct and effective form o/f should be of such that it works in the hunters,jumpers,eq, eventing or out hunting. It's not rocket science, really.

    Not to mention form o/f in the hunter ring should be NO DIFFERENT than correct and effective form in the Hunt field. Afterall, isn't show hunters supposed to be based on what is ideal in the huntfield?
    Try going out 1st flight for 3 hours while jumping 3ft solid fences( using the laying on the neck form) and let us know how that goes
    Of all the posts on this subject, this one is the best by far.

    But add to that "jumping 3' solid fences" the occasional 4'. And most of the fences by this time of the year are muddy on take off and landing and there is the occasional peck, stumble or slide by the horse.

    And those trees that are on the landing side...the horse can't decide to pass on the left or the right and changes his mind at the last minute; three strides from the coop.

    Not good for the extreme forward position.

    CSSJR

    If we do not wish to lose our freedom, we must learn to tolerate our
    neighbor's right to freedom even though he might express that freedom
    in a manner we consider to be eccentric.

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    • #82
      I had to make a username just for this thread! what do yall think abotu this, this gurls a friend of mine so she dont care if i use her pic.

      http://photos-a.ll.facebook.com/phot...93568_6829.jpg

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      • Original Poster

        #83
        Originally posted by floridamare2 View Post
        I had to make a username just for this thread! what do yall think abotu this, this gurls a friend of mine so she dont care if i use her pic.

        http://photos-a.ll.facebook.com/phot...93568_6829.jpg
        Funny thing, I actually know exactly who that is and I don't think she would be too thrilled about her photo being on here, funny as it is or not - and she has laughed at it and knows it's not near being perfect. You would be wise to take that down. Use your own photos, i'm sure you have pleanty we can laugh at!
        "I am going to teach you about men. distances are like men. Never grab the first one you see; it's never the best one, and more will come along."-George Morris

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        • #84
          Let's not start comparing field hunters and show hunters again. Show hunters were originally based on field hunters, but that was eons ago, and show hunters have evolved into their own unique genre. Like someone else mentioned, you don't want a back cracker in the hunt field. But you do want that in the show ring. It ain't the same thing anymore.

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          • Original Poster

            #85
            I'll use my kids for an example

            There's instances like these where the arms could have avoided the full extend but her hip angle her leg are just perfect, if her upper body would have been any more "up" it would have looked and probably felt just silly. A correction of the hands and arms would have been suitable. (IMO)


            http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-...67632_3806.jpg

            http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-...67652_9040.jpg
            "I am going to teach you about men. distances are like men. Never grab the first one you see; it's never the best one, and more will come along."-George Morris

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            • #86
              I've found that the more I try to release, the worse I ride. When I make a point of really giving a good release, I do end up laying on my horse's neck. It's really kind of weird and I'm somewhat concerned that I'm not capable of doing a long release without sprawling on my horse. It's like I can't put my hands forward without my hip closing excessively. Does anyone have any insight on that? Should I just ride how I feel is appropriate and not worry about a big release? Because I'm always worried I'm not releasing enough, and my horse tends to stop as it is, the last thing he needs is an excuse! This is why I want to learn the automatic release, lol.

              As far as a driving seat... I always try to ride to fences in a half seat, but if my horse has stopped at the fence or I think he might, I'll sit back and really drive him at it--and it works. I wouldn't ride every horse like that, though. A girl at my barn was letting a little kid half-lease her mare. The little kid's instructor told her to sit back to the fence, and the horse started refusing. The girl who owns the horse was not at all happy.

              Here's a pic of me jumping 3'6" for the first (and only) time ever. Yes, I grabbed mane, lol: http://i41.tinypic.com/2iiy55k.jpg . Except for my leg slipping back, I think my equitation is pretty good, especially since I'd never jumped that high.
              Against My Better Judgement: A blog about my new FLF OTTB
              Do not buy a Volkswagen. I did and I regret it.
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              • #87
                I don't think that tidyrabbit's horse, who is very nice BTW, was jumping any better in that photo than the other photos. I think that the quality and the angle of that photo was better, but her horse's knees are up just as much and he is just as round most of the time in the other photos.

                I don't believe you have to lay on a horse's neck to get the most correct and expressive jump out of the horse. I think the rider is more secure if they are not laying on the horse's neck. That is the main problem that I have with the biting the mane position. It causes a rider's lower leg to swing back because more focus and weight is put ahead of the center of balance. In most photos, a rider who utilizes that position has a poor lower leg position.

                A good horse can still look good even if the rider has a bad position. Ducking is certainly a no-no because it does throw the horse's front end off to one side (I have ducked before, and I could literally feel my horse swing his front end).

                Some horses may like for you to lay on their neck and stay up off their back better. I do not think that you can ride some horses like that. I am not convinced that this style is the best way. This type of style is definitely for made hunters that go around the ring like a seasoned pro.

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                • #88
                  Originally posted by Filly85' View Post
                  That is the main problem that I have with the biting the mane position. It causes a rider's lower leg to swing back because more focus and weight is put ahead of the center of balance. In most photos, a rider who utilizes that position has a poor lower leg position.
                  Don't confuse ducking and jumping ahead. Also don't think you must go off to the side to duck. Ducking (what I'm taking you to mean by "biting the mane") doesn't cause a poor lower leg. Jumping ahead is what that swinging lower leg.

                  The only reason I point out the difference is because I'm a pretty decent ducker. I duck straight, not off to one side. I overly close my hip angle and get scrunched up. I don't usually jump ahead (except when I'm nervous. BUT, I don't really lose my lower leg doing either.

                  ducking

                  jumping ahead and ducking

                  Jumping ahead and ducking

                  previously posted jumping ahead and ducking

                  I haven't lost my leg much in any of those shots. If you pulled the horse out from under me, I would most likely land on my feet...maybe having to take a balancing step forward in a couple.

                  Personally, I've found I keep my leg and stay out of the saddle until landing better when I shorten my stirrups for jumping. I also jump ahead less. The shorter stirrup makes me push my butt back to keep my balance correct. I* think the long stirrups that were popular for awhile are one major contributor to laying on the neck. It's hard to keep your leg under you when you can't really be down in your heel.
                  Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
                  Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

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                  • #89
                    A funny thing struck me as I looked at the photos on this thread. In all the ducking and jumping ahead photos, it looks to me like every single body part is in motion - except the hands. The legs, the shoulders, the torso, the elbows may be all over the place. But the HANDS don't look to have given any kind of a release at all.

                    Anybody else look at the photos and see this? Is it a cause or an effect?
                    Incredible Invisible

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                    • #90
                      Originally posted by amastrike View Post
                      I've found that the more I try to release, the worse I ride. When I make a point of really giving a good release, I do end up laying on my horse's neck. It's really kind of weird and I'm somewhat concerned that I'm not capable of doing a long release without sprawling on my horse. It's like I can't put my hands forward without my hip closing excessively. Does anyone have any insight on that? Should I just ride how I feel is appropriate and not worry about a big release? Because I'm always worried I'm not releasing enough, and my horse tends to stop as it is, the last thing he needs is an excuse! This is why I want to learn the automatic release, lol.

                      As far as a driving seat... I always try to ride to fences in a half seat, but if my horse has stopped at the fence or I think he might, I'll sit back and really drive him at it--and it works. I wouldn't ride every horse like that, though. A girl at my barn was letting a little kid half-lease her mare. The little kid's instructor told her to sit back to the fence, and the horse started refusing. The girl who owns the horse was not at all happy.

                      Here's a pic of me jumping 3'6" for the first (and only) time ever. Yes, I grabbed mane, lol: http://i41.tinypic.com/2iiy55k.jpg . Except for my leg slipping back, I think my equitation is pretty good, especially since I'd never jumped that high.
                      I think your upper body position is ideal. That is what I like to see. Your lower leg may have slipped back a little because you were nervous since it was your first time at that height. My lower leg only slips back at the shows, and it is because I overanticipate due to nerves.

                      I think that if you took your upper body position and my lower leg position in this photo it would be ideal, except both of our releases could be a little prettier (I know that you grabbed mane). I am using a "quasi" (i.e. incorrect) automatic release and there is a broken line from my arms to the bit. In all honesty, I had lost my touch a bit because I hadn't ridden consistently in a while. Both of us look soft and effective in these photos despite our EQ ring flaws.

                      If you get too forward on this horse that I was riding you will go for a ride after the fence. He gets very fast if you get too forward. That is why my upper body position is high over the fence. You have to sit up when you land on this one.

                      http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h7...d8f3e09b-1.jpg

                      I consider ducking to be leaning off to one side or the other while really low and looking down. Biting the mane is lying on the horse's neck.

                      I believe the biting the mane position makes it very easy to create a lot of other problems such as the one that you described. It shouldn't feel forced. So just ride your horse how you are comfortable. As long as you give him a little bit of room and don't pop him in the mouth, it won't make him any more likely to refuse without the exaggerated crest release.

                      (And if you're wondering, I am very bored tonight and seriously procrastinating!)

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        Originally posted by CBoylen View Post
                        Tidy, I know you don't want to hear this, but in that picture your horse is jumping better than in any other photo in the album. It's a nice little demonstration of how the horse's form mirrors the rider's form when you look at the differences. Of course you have to be comfortable with your own position, but some times you have to look at the benefits of things that make you uncomfortable.
                        But, I don't think it's my position that's affecting the horse's jump here, but more my mile long take off. If you were to look at pictures where I'm leaving long the horse typically jerks his knees way up.

                        I find that he jumps better and cleaner if I use a good automatic release. But, like anything, there's a million factors and position is just one of them.
                        Stoneybrook Farm Afton TN

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                        • #92
                          Originally posted by Filly85' View Post
                          I consider ducking to be leaning off to one side or the other while really low and looking down. Biting the mane is lying on the horse's neck.
                          Ditto. Ducking is off to one side. Lying on the neck is sticking your face in the mane, or withers in the boobs.


                          I stuck my face in the mane once. Luckily I still have my teeth. That's how I learned not to do that.



                          I remember a funny story about a friend who had a habit of lying on the neck. Trainer called her over, and asked if she knew what that line on her shirt was, right in between her boobs. She said no.

                          So trainer says, "It's dirt. First of all, tits don't belong on a horse. Keep your chest up. Second, groom your damn horse better." My friend was so embarassed she said she wished she could have melted into the ground right there.

                          Comment


                          • #93
                            Okay, here's another one where I'm getting the withers between the boobs. I really am going to stop jumping this way!! I don't think it really affects the horse one way or another so long as your with your horse's motion. But I do think that using an auto release and having that steady contact and following had does help the horse to jump cleaner and stay on pace/track much easier.

                            http://pets.webshots.com/photo/28232...48495570oAEOeB
                            Stoneybrook Farm Afton TN

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                            • #94
                              Originally posted by Filly85' View Post
                              I consider ducking to be leaning off to one side or the other while really low and looking down. Biting the mane is lying on the horse's neck.
                              Never once have I heard the term 'biting the mane' until this thread. Guess someone should tell the founders of HSE that ducking means to the side only and that a straight on duck is 'biting the mane.'

                              IMO, Ducking is closing the hip angle too much, whether you lean off to the side or not. Many, many people duck to the side (those that looks down at their fence, usually) but that in and of itself does not define ducking. The hip angle is what is important.

                              Some people duck because they open their knee angle too much, throw their butt in the air and the lean at the neck, closing the hip angle too much. Again, it doesn't have to be off to the side.

                              Quin: you pointed out my set hands. It's an issue I deal with. However, both chestnut horses need a lot of support over a fence. One because he was a stopper and wouldn't go without a very strong feel. The other because he's built downhill and would dig himself a hole to China on the way to the jump and after without the extra support. I've tried long generous releases on him and he falls apart for the next fence.

                              Tidy: Hope looks fantastic in that picture.
                              Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
                              Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

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                              • #95
                                . I* think the long stirrups that were popular for awhile are one major contributor to laying on the neck. It's hard to keep your leg under you when you can't really be down in your heel.
                                I agree. I haven't noticed the trend diminishing either, at least not in my area. I am amazed how many people go around jumping with uber long stirrups. I did the same thing for quite some time and my trainers never once corrected me. It definitely caused me to lay on the neck. Once I started riding with an eventing trainer who made me raise them a few holes the problem went away. My leg was so much more stable overall too.
                                I know a number of riders who have this same problem and I am so tempted to tell them to try raising their stirrups, but I keep my mouth shut since I'm not a trainer!
                                I still jump ahead sometimes when I get nervous but I rarely end up on the neck anymore. My biggest problem is I need to push my butt back further so my lower leg stays more stable. When I remember to do that I am in the most secure/correct position.

                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  Originally posted by Quin View Post
                                  A funny thing struck me as I looked at the photos on this thread. In all the ducking and jumping ahead photos, it looks to me like every single body part is in motion - except the hands. The legs, the shoulders, the torso, the elbows may be all over the place. But the HANDS don't look to have given any kind of a release at all.

                                  Anybody else look at the photos and see this? Is it a cause or an effect?
                                  When you've thrown the majority of your "above the saddle" weight in front of yourself, unless you are extremely accomplished you need to lean on your hands to keep from falling down. After looking at hundreds of photos of people jumping ahead (and that's what we're talking about here), it's obvious to me that that vast majority are riding over fences with their stirrups way too long. It's just about impossible to keep yourself over the middle of the horse when you're jumping with a straight leg.
                                  Donald Trump - proven liar, cheat, traitor and sexual predator! Hillary Clinton won in 2016, but we have all lost.

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                                  • #97
                                    Originally posted by SLSDelmar View Post
                                    My point- eq is always evolving, every judge likes something different, hopefully all something similar. As far as I am concerned there has never been a meeting held where a group of Eq God's sat down and created 'musts'. You strive to impress the judge, therefore you study what they like. Not what is "right". Because at the end of the day, what is right? Besides "form following function".

                                    Eq should not be evolving to match the show ring trends. Correct riding is not subjects to trends, similar to correct conformation (and trends in the show ring is why you cant find a halter horse with correct legs to save your life). Proper equitation is being the most secure and balanced while allowing your horse to move and jump to the best of its abilities. Not riding to cover flaws, or riding to give an illusion of the horse's ability (which IMO doesnt even succeed).

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                                    • #98
                                      Honestly, I believe that the "up"/"rising"/"standing" phase of the posting trot is the correct two-point, give or take a couple of minor details. That's what my instructor taught me, that's what I read in equitation/hunter books by big-name authors. Correct me if you will, I'm just stating my opinion.

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                                      • #99
                                        Originally posted by SLSDelmar View Post
                                        I read in another topic someone stated they didn't want to sport the 'lay on your horses neck' 2-point whether it's "in style" or not.

                                        So here's my question, not to that person but to everyone. Is that really in style, or just a common adaptation of the original 2-point. Do trainers actually teach their clients to "lay on their horses necks" or is it just a form of habbit?

                                        I don't remember any trainer teaching me HOW to look when I two point, and my two point did evolve with time on it's own.
                                        Anything that is completely non-functional cannot possibly be "correct." At best an exaggerated affectation, I DEFY someone to ride downhill on greasy footing, and jump a drop into mud in that position. Let me know how that turns out . . . !

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                                        • Very old thread bumped up....which is fine, just putting it out there for people who might not notice when they are reading.

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