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the "hunters lay" "duck" "sprawl yourself on it's neck" 2-point

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  • #21
    OK, here I go again as ancient as I am. But, when I rode as a child, we spent hours on flat work. Two point/release practice at the walk, trot, canter, with and without stirrups. Serpentines, lateral work, etc. My daughter is concerned about her position. I described a lesson and she and her instructor looked at me like I was crazy. The thought these days is that you practice over jumps - groundwork doesn't come into it. I don't get it....

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    • #22
      Originally posted by SLSDelmar View Post
      Alright, I'm not here to strike up an argument or fight for the hunters lay because honestly I couldn't care less how the next person wants to ride. But where did we find "correct position" who created it? Who says it's "correct" when people who use the hunters lay are pinning well as are this with what you call "correct position". Where did correct position come from? And who is to say it is the RIGHT WAY.

      I for one teach a proper hip angle, a tight calf and thigh and connection from bit to hand, I think all else follows and falls properly into place as one advances.
      Correct is not just an aesthetic. The reason sprawling is not correct is because its not secure. Legs back, most of the weight forward over the horses neck instead of over their leg. Most of the time, they are also jumping ahead of the motion, and not allowing the horse to close their hip angle, but thrusting themselves forward. If something happened, the horse tripped on landing, took a funny jump, whatever - the rider has no base of support because instead of their weight being over their leg and the saddle, its way up the horse's neck. Not to mention, this makes it way harder for the horse to jump. Which is one reason I suspect such large horses are in style at the moment. Because most 16h horses can make it down a line of 12ft strides, but they cant jump well from under a sack of potatoes.

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      • #23
        Originally posted by SLSDelmar View Post
        But where did we find "correct position" who created it? Who says it's "correct" when people who use the hunters lay are pinning well as are this with what you call "correct position". Where did correct position come from? And who is to say it is the RIGHT WAY.
        George!

        I have ridden with many trainers over the years that have always taught the correct position over the jumps. Many of them however didn't practice what the preached.

        I show equitation and hunters, so I always strive to have perfect eq over every fence. (The key word there is strive. Anyway, I think sometimes bad habits are ignored or even embraced if the ribbons are coming....I personally don't think it's right, but to each their own.

        My current trainer is old school - used to ride with George, among other greats - and he's a stickler about position and release.

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        • #24
          I think that this style came from the trendy crest release. Everyone follows their hands up the horse's neck with their bodies. Try to do that with an automatic release, and you will keel right over
          Eight Fences Farm. Mansfield, MA

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          • #25
            Originally posted by Seven-up View Post
            They pin in the hunters because they're looking at the horse, not the rider.

            And some hunter trainers (not the eq trainers) teach the duck, sprawl, and stick out the elbows because they think it makes it look like the horse is jumping you right out of the tack.
            I've never understood this. Isn't the judge supposed to be looking for the horse s/he would most like to ride in the hunt field? Who wants to be jumped out of the tack in the hunt field (or anywhere for that matter)?
            Donald Trump - proven liar, cheat, traitor and sexual predator! Hillary Clinton won in 2016, but we have all lost.

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            • Original Poster

              #26
              alright, it seems that I was refering to something different than what is being discussed. Perhaps photos, post photos with your reply? What you think is correct or incorrect.

              I have a feeling people won't want to find their photos here so try to find photos where a riders face isn't front and center!
              "I am going to teach you about men. distances are like men. Never grab the first one you see; it's never the best one, and more will come along."-George Morris

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              • Original Poster

                #27
                Originally posted by chawley View Post
                George!

                I have ridden with many trainers over the years that have always taught the correct position over the jumps. Many of them however didn't practice what the preached.

                I show equitation and hunters, so I always strive to have perfect eq over every fence. (The key word there is strive. Anyway, I think sometimes bad habits are ignored or even embraced if the ribbons are coming....I personally don't think it's right, but to each their own.

                My current trainer is old school - used to ride with George, among other greats - and he's a stickler about position and release.
                I was waiting for that answer, and while George is nationally praised he is not the person in the sky who says "this is how you must ride to win" and everyone hales what he says. I know pleanty of people who George may not appreciate, but they do quite well for themselves in the eq. And I make this assumption not based on speaking to George personally but reading whatever I can and looking at his photo critiques, then compairing it to this person or that persons winning or high placing eq round.


                My point- eq is always evolving, every judge likes something different, hopefully all something similar. As far as I am concerned there has never been a meeting held where a group of Eq God's sat down and created 'musts'. You strive to impress the judge, therefore you study what they like. Not what is "right". Because at the end of the day, what is right? Besides "form following function". I have another feeling that if I asked each person here what "right" would be in a photo each would have it's differences, nobody rides the same, so there are many forms of "correct" no form of "right".


                - - - again, duck may not have been applicable to what I was trying to describe. John French for instance, his typical look over fnces isn't what I was refering to which yes, is a duck.

                Photos people! Let's use visual examples!
                "I am going to teach you about men. distances are like men. Never grab the first one you see; it's never the best one, and more will come along."-George Morris

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                • #28
                  They can ride however they like for all I care - as long as they are being pinned by the judges. But they better stay showing at the 2'6" height, on a perfectly flat, figure eight course, in a safe arena with a trainer around at all times. Take them out and work on not so level ground, or have them change disciplines, jump higher, start a young horse, etc. then the form to function thing comes into play and they have to ride.
                  Proud member of People Who Hate to Kill Wildlife clique

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                  • #29
                    This picture is the poster child for that 6 point position being taught.

                    http://pets.webshots.com/photo/26750...48495570AGMqKr



                    I was not doing it "right" until I was like this. Where's the barf Icon?
                    Stoneybrook Farm Afton TN

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                    • Original Poster

                      #30
                      Originally posted by tidy rabbit View Post
                      This picture is the poster child for that 6 point position being taught.

                      http://pets.webshots.com/photo/26750...48495570AGMqKr



                      I was not doing it "right" until I was like this. Where's the barf Icon?
                      Beautiful horse! So this is the two point you encourage or discourage?
                      "I am going to teach you about men. distances are like men. Never grab the first one you see; it's never the best one, and more will come along."-George Morris

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by SLSDelmar View Post
                        Beautiful horse! So this is the two point you encourage or discourage?

                        This was the position that the clinician (BNT in the hunters) insisted I be in and was not happy until I reached that level of laying on my horse. I don't particularly care for the feeling of the horse's withers between my boobs. LOL
                        Stoneybrook Farm Afton TN

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                        • #32
                          I was so glad to see this thread!

                          I totally agree with the theme of this thread!

                          Maybe I am just secretly jealous of those whose horses will go around with this riding. If I jump ahead my horse stops. Sometimes when my horse stops I don't...

                          I am incapable of getting over the crest without jumping ahead, so therefore we just don't go there!

                          Tidy, shame on you. I just spit out my water laughing about boobs and withers!
                          DIY Journey of Remodeling the Farmette: http://weownblackacre.blogspot.com/

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                          • #33
                            Originally posted by SLSDelmar View Post
                            I was waiting for that answer, and while George is nationally praised he is not the person in the sky who says "this is how you must ride to win" and everyone hales what he says. I know pleanty of people who George may not appreciate, but they do quite well for themselves in the eq. And I make this assumption not based on speaking to George personally but reading whatever I can and looking at his photo critiques, then compairing it to this person or that persons winning or high placing eq round.


                            My point- eq is always evolving, every judge likes something different, hopefully all something similar. As far as I am concerned there has never been a meeting held where a group of Eq God's sat down and created 'musts'. You strive to impress the judge, therefore you study what they like. Not what is "right". Because at the end of the day, what is right? Besides "form following function". I have another feeling that if I asked each person here what "right" would be in a photo each would have it's differences, nobody rides the same, so there are many forms of "correct" no form of "right".


                            - - - again, duck may not have been applicable to what I was trying to describe. John French for instance, his typical look over fnces isn't what I was refering to which yes, is a duck.

                            Photos people! Let's use visual examples!
                            I was actually being a tad facetious w/the George comment, hence my smiley face. Like you, I think style has evolved over the years, and many great riders have adopted their own, which is fine. But, balance and a correct, solid leg are fundamental to the safety and effectiveness of our sport. Maybe BNT can duck, jump ahead, or hang off the side of his horse, or whatever and still get around beautifully, but for the average and even some advanced riders, this is a good way to end up in the dirt.

                            Personally, I'm not a huge I love George person, but I really do believe his constant harp on position is dead on. JMHO.

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                            • #34
                              Tidy, that is NOT correct. I can still see your face. Your ear MUST BE LEVEL WITH THE CREST OF HIS NECK. geez.
                              EHJ | FB | #140 | watch | #insta

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                              • #35
                                dags, you mean like this? Is this better?

                                http://pets.webshots.com/photo/26099...48495570WONcRH


                                I will admit this one is my own fault and not any reflection on my trainers or coaching or whatever. SIT UP! I think I was trying to catch a little cat nap before the next jump. "Ahh, an oxer, a good place to rest for a minute."
                                Stoneybrook Farm Afton TN

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                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by tidy rabbit View Post
                                  dags, you mean like this? Is this better?

                                  http://pets.webshots.com/photo/26099...48495570WONcRH


                                  I will admit this one is my own fault and not any reflection on my trainers or coaching or whatever. SIT UP!
                                  Actually, if I may...I would like to see you drop your left shoulder about 6 inches down...really go for it! Maybe tilt your head for better napping position too, if that was your goal...can't decide
                                  DIY Journey of Remodeling the Farmette: http://weownblackacre.blogspot.com/

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                                  • #37
                                    That is, like, a 16 point release or something.

                                    Looks like you got every knuckle turned under and sort of rolled into the neck...looks good with the wing...er...elbows pointing down and out like that. I simply cannot get my arms arranged that way

                                    Still, if it makes a Hunter go like his do? Whatever, don't care for it.
                                    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                                    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

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                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by tidy rabbit View Post
                                      I don't particularly care for the feeling of the horse's withers between my boobs. LOL
                                      Snort!

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                                      • #39
                                        Tidy, you're hopeless. The horse is totally balanced to the outside. You aren't leaning in NEAR enough to get him to drop that inside knee and get a head start on the left turn. Haven't you ever seen a dirtbike race?? Lean and turn baby, lean and turn . . .
                                        EHJ | FB | #140 | watch | #insta

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                                        • Original Poster

                                          #40
                                          I wish so badly my username wasn't known! I have some terribly funny pictures I've seen on a few peoples facebooks. I mean, butt about 8 inches higher than the head, arms looking like an elephant trunk, ballet toes in the stirrups!
                                          "I am going to teach you about men. distances are like men. Never grab the first one you see; it's never the best one, and more will come along."-George Morris

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