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old vs new debate - SERIOUS REPLIES ONLY

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  • old vs new debate - SERIOUS REPLIES ONLY

    I'll make this as candid and direct as I possibly can. I can't argue with Adjust My Style's decision to close her ill-fated GM thread, since it had degenerated into a war of words between me and a handful of would-be psychophants, and I was obviously going to prevail.

    Still, I feel it's important to provide an opportunity for everyone to respond to any of the points I made, especially since several posters made it clear they have personal feelings at stake here. Therefore, I am starting a new thread.

    This is the place to make yourself heard if you can articulate a coherent rebuttal to any of the following points:

    1) With the possible exception of height, every aspect of a big time jumper course is more challenging today than ever before

    2) The North American horse show industry operates today on a much larger scale than at any time in the past

    3) George Morris has been preaching essentially the same message to the general public for at least 20 years, even though the sport he claims to represent has changed drastically

    4) The idea that the proliferation of European horses in the show ring somehow illustrates a deterioration of riding skills is nonsense

    5) Many riders who competed successfully in the 1980's are still showing today, and even though they are better riders now than they were 20 years ago, they are less successful in the show ring.

    Those of you who would rather continue your meagre attempts to harrass me are invited to post here:unmoderated board where you will find many knowledgeable people.

    Those of you who want to harrass Exitpoint will have no choice but to attend a horse show. It's a big step, but you can do it.

    Thanks
  • Original Poster

    #2
    I'll make this as candid and direct as I possibly can. I can't argue with Adjust My Style's decision to close her ill-fated GM thread, since it had degenerated into a war of words between me and a handful of would-be psychophants, and I was obviously going to prevail.

    Still, I feel it's important to provide an opportunity for everyone to respond to any of the points I made, especially since several posters made it clear they have personal feelings at stake here. Therefore, I am starting a new thread.

    This is the place to make yourself heard if you can articulate a coherent rebuttal to any of the following points:

    1) With the possible exception of height, every aspect of a big time jumper course is more challenging today than ever before

    2) The North American horse show industry operates today on a much larger scale than at any time in the past

    3) George Morris has been preaching essentially the same message to the general public for at least 20 years, even though the sport he claims to represent has changed drastically

    4) The idea that the proliferation of European horses in the show ring somehow illustrates a deterioration of riding skills is nonsense

    5) Many riders who competed successfully in the 1980's are still showing today, and even though they are better riders now than they were 20 years ago, they are less successful in the show ring.

    Those of you who would rather continue your meagre attempts to harrass me are invited to post here:unmoderated board where you will find many knowledgeable people.

    Those of you who want to harrass Exitpoint will have no choice but to attend a horse show. It's a big step, but you can do it.

    Thanks

    Comment


    • #3
      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Electric Tape:

      3) George Morris has been preaching essentially the same message to the general public for at least 20 years, even though the sport he claims to represent has changed drastically

      <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

      The sport may have changed, but the basics do not. Simply because we have bendy stirrup irons now doesn't mean we no longer need a flexible ankle. Because riders can't get out of the ring, for whatever reason, doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to ride forward. Just because A/A's can't put in the saddle time to achieve a secure leg doesn't mean a "praying mantis" position should be excused. Just because we have become a politically-correct society doesn't mean a trainer shouldn't encourage fitness in his students. And, finally, you'll find that EVERYTHING that can/will go wrong in riding, be it with the horse, rider, or both, all boils down to BASICS. The very best trainers, like GM, know that.

      Heart in a horse is every bit as important as it is in a person. ~Jimmy Cruise

      Comment


      • #4
        Okay, I'm being very serious here..."psychophant" is not a word. Sycophant is. Not with a "P", it has nothing to do with the root word 'Psycho' shortened from "Psychosis" and being related to the mind and it's workings. Sycophant is a word used to describe people who slander others or who cheat others...so I doubt anyone on here is a "would-be" one.
        There is my serious & articulate rebuttal. Spell check can help you determine which big words you are using actually exist or not and an online thesaurus can aide you in using them correctly.
        Just lending a helping hand with your attempt at seriousness...please resume...

        Equine Crash Test Dummy
        Member of: Non-GPA Clique
        Auto Release Clique
        Connecticut Clique
        Helmet Nazi Clique
        You jump in the saddle,
        Hold onto the bridle!
        Jump in the line!
        ...Belefonte

        Comment


        • #5
          "can aide you"???????????? Perhaps we were meaning to say "aid".................? LOL
          I'm feeling spiteful having lost at Literati the last six games.....

          http://www.pzonearth.com
          .........just call me Nana.

          Comment


          • #6
            An "aide is a person who does, indeed, aid. You got me there...I used the noun instead of the verb.

            Equine Crash Test Dummy
            Member of: Non-GPA Clique
            Auto Release Clique
            Connecticut Clique
            Helmet Nazi Clique
            You jump in the saddle,
            Hold onto the bridle!
            Jump in the line!
            ...Belefonte

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sbt78lw:
              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Electric Tape:

              3) George Morris has been preaching essentially the same message to the general public for at least 20 years, even though the sport he claims to represent has changed drastically

              <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

              The sport may have changed, but the basics do not. Simply because we have bendy stirrup irons now doesn't mean we no longer need a flexible ankle. Because riders can't get out of the ring, for whatever reason, doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to ride forward. Just because A/A's can't put in the saddle time to achieve a secure leg doesn't mean a "praying mantis" position should be excused. Just because we have become a politically-correct society doesn't mean a trainer shouldn't encourage fitness in his students. And, finally, you'll find that EVERYTHING that can/will go wrong in riding, be it with the horse, rider, or both, all boils down to BASICS. The very best trainers, like GM, know that.

              _Heart in a horse is every bit as important as it is in a person. ~Jimmy Cruise_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

              So you acknowledge that the sport has changed, and you don't disagree that GM's routine has not. Therefore my point stands.

              thank you

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                'psychophant' is indeed a word. Anyone who has followed GM as closely as you should recognize its special meaning!

                Comment


                • #9
                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Electric Tape:


                  This is the place to make yourself heard if you can articulate a coherent rebuttal to any of the following points:

                  1) With the possible exception of height, every aspect of a big time jumper course is more challenging today than ever before
                  <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Probably true if you are talking about the very top classes. But there is a proliferation (in the US) of so-called "Grand Prix" which are not as challenging. Also, can you clarify whetehr you are talking about American "top jumper courses", or worldwide "top Jumper courses" (e.g., Aachen).<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
                  2) The North American horse show industry operates today on a much larger scale than at any time in the past <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> True, though it is not clear whether this is a good thing or a bad thing.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
                  3) George Morris has been preaching essentially the same message to the general public for at least 20 years, even though the sport he claims to represent has changed drastically<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> When both GM and Victor were writing columns, it was interesting that they could address the same issue in such different ways- George by complaining about what was wrong, and Victor by praising what was right, and encouraging other to copy what was right. In that respect, George hasn't changed his message- he complains.

                  But even though the sport has changed (I don't know that I agree with "drastically", at least at the top levels which appear to be the part under discussion), the things that were wrong 20 years ago may very well be the same things that are wrong now. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
                  4) The idea that the proliferation of European horses in the show ring somehow illustrates a deterioration of riding skills is nonsense <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Of course it is nonsense. You are willfully twisting what someone else was saying. At the top levels, WBs require different skills (as a generalization), but not lesser skills.

                  At the bottom of the sport, the story is rather different. The threshold for being "a good enough rider to go to an A show" has certainy deteriorated. More tolerant horses (which WBs often are) may well be part of it. As well as the proliferation of ante-pre-baby-hunter/jumper classes.
                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
                  5) Many riders who competed successfully in the 1980's are still showing today, and even though they are better riders now than they were 20 years ago, they are less successful in the show ring. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This depends on your criteria for defining both being "a better rider" and being "more sucessful". Regardless of how good a rider they are, someone 40(plus)-something is likely to have different objectives from someone 20-something. For instance, I am sure that Nelson Pessoa is still an excellent rider. But from a competitive perspective he isn't "Successful", since competition is no longer his primary focus.

                  Janet
                  chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
                  Janet

                  chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Electric Tape:


                    This is the place to make yourself heard if you can articulate a coherent rebuttal to any of the following points:

                    1) With the possible exception of height, every aspect of a big time jumper course is more challenging today than ever before
                    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Probably true if you are talking about the very top classes. But there is a proliferation (in the US) of so-called "Grand Prix" which are not as challenging. Also, can you clarify whetehr you are talking about American "top jumper courses", or worldwide "top Jumper courses" (e.g., Aachen).<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
                    2) The North American horse show industry operates today on a much larger scale than at any time in the past <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> True, though it is not clear whether this is a good thing or a bad thing.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
                    3) George Morris has been preaching essentially the same message to the general public for at least 20 years, even though the sport he claims to represent has changed drastically<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> When both GM and Victor were writing columns, it was interesting that they could address the same issue in such different ways- George by complaining about what was wrong, and Victor by praising what was right, and encouraging other to copy what was right. In that respect, George hasn't changed his message- he complains.

                    But even though the sport has changed (I don't know that I agree with "drastically", at least at the top levels which appear to be the part under discussion), the things that were wrong 20 years ago may very well be the same things that are wrong now. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
                    4) The idea that the proliferation of European horses in the show ring somehow illustrates a deterioration of riding skills is nonsense <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Of course it is nonsense. You are willfully twisting what someone else was saying. At the top levels, WBs require different skills (as a generalization), but not lesser skills.

                    At the bottom of the sport, the story is rather different. The threshold for being "a good enough rider to go to an A show" has certainy deteriorated. More tolerant horses (which WBs often are) may well be part of it. As well as the proliferation of ante-pre-baby-hunter/jumper classes.
                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
                    5) Many riders who competed successfully in the 1980's are still showing today, and even though they are better riders now than they were 20 years ago, they are less successful in the show ring. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This depends on your criteria for defining both being "a better rider" and being "more sucessful". Regardless of how good a rider they are, someone 40(plus)-something is likely to have different objectives from someone 20-something. For instance, I am sure that Nelson Pessoa is still an excellent rider. But from a competitive perspective he isn't "Successful", since competition is no longer his primary focus.

                    Janet
                    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                    So I'm 4 for 4 and you chose not to answer number 5. Of course I'm not talking about Nelson Pessoa. There are at least 10 obvious candidates who fit the description, and he does not.

                    Re: # 1 - both.

                    Re: the European horse thing - I didnt twist anyone's words. Read the closed thread again if you didn't get that the first time.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> There are at least 10 obvious candidates who fit the description, and he does not. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> OK, tell me who you are talking about, and what your definition of "sucessful" and "better rider" are, and I might be able to answer 5.

                      Janet
                      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
                      Janet

                      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        OK, since we already used him as an example: Ian Millar.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          1) Having not really seen any of the courses of "back when" I can't really say that I amqualified to answer this question. But I can say, that back then the footing wasn't perfect, and they probably didn't care nearly as much about detail (if the fence was 5" top far away from the other, it just stayed there, adn the riders dealt with it). Here, we always seen to be riding on (more or less) perfect footing, with everything layed out for us, and no real challenge in the course.
                          I will say that the courses in Europe (well, since I lived in germany, and showed there-lets just say germany) are MUCH more challening then what we have here. Oh, I also don't consider a hunter course even a course (I'm a jumper), they are just way to simple-your biggest challenge is riding the right number of strides down a perfectly measured line.

                          2)Probably, but there is a major problem with it-it's a huge industry, there is way too much money going to everyone expect for the competitors-back in europe every class is not only affordable, but gasp-you even win money! Horse shows still need to operate on a much larger scale-they need to be everywhere, you need to be able to drive no more then 30min. to get to a show, and they should be affordable to even the average person!

                          3)Again, I don't know what he was preaching 20 years ago, but I imagine it hasn't changed a ton-but I also dont belive the sport has changed any, yes, there are new classes for beginner riders/horses-but when you break it down, the SPORT is still the same, they've just opened competitions to more people (at least riding ability wise).

                          4)definite nonsense-thats all I own, and yes, some are much mroe easy going then others-in fact, my SWG is a great horse to teach people to ride on, but put him in the show ring, and unless you RIDE (as in sit down, use your leg, drive foward and keep him collected) he won't jump. Granted, I have done a bunch with him in the last few years, and now he jumps quite well-but I haven't taken him to a show either.
                          My mare is the exact oppisite, if you are not dead on in everything, she will let you know.
                          I guess what I am saying-if you buy the european horse in europe, he is going to eb trained to take the rider to the highest level possible, and as a result demand the highest level of riding. Buy the WB here, and he is trained to pack people around.

                          5)Honestly, I couldn't tell you-but think about it, if they were competitive at high levels 20 years ago, they were probably in their mid-20s, now they would be in their mid 40's-thats a huge jump, your life changes so much in that time, I just dont think you can compare this at all.

                          My collection of not-so-great pics of my "herd" http://groups.msn.com/BAENAddicts/li...nw?albumlist=2
                          http://www.pairofacesstables.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MistyBlue:
                            Okay, I'm being very serious here..."psychophant" is not a word. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                            Oh, I think ElectricTape is right on the mark with psychophant

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              OK obviously this thread and apparently the previous one require a flame suit, so I am all zipped up. I really have only one thing to say, so I am not addressing the whole initial post in numerical order. I will also avoid any big words for fear of using them incorrectly or misspelling them!!

                              I am not a GM devotee, primarily because he has been deified. (Yikes, kind of a big word. Did I spell and use it correctly?) Anyway, he is worshipped for his accomplishments, which granted are numerous but not unrivaled. He has essentially marketed himself EXTREMELY well, and there is nothing wrong with that. But he didn't come up with the basics, he just studied them extensively and taught them, wrote about them, embraced them, gave them his own twist etc. I agree with what he says about many things, but not EVERYTHING.

                              If I am correct (and I am not saying I am), but I thought his article was primarily addressing the quality of riding instruction at the present time. To my understanding or at least what I focused on about the article was that intructors today do not focus on the basics enough in their teaching. He cited BASIC position issues, such as weight in the lower leg etc as things he feels are overlooked.

                              So now I am getting to my point, and if this is a big troll fest I can't believe I have spent this much time on it...

                              I am addressing #3 of the original post: yes the sport and the industry have changed significantly in the past 20 yrs. The style of horse being ridden, the quality or lack thereof etc. But they are still HORSES!! They have a leg on each corner, need to be in balance etc, and the whole concept behind a "correct design of position" -for those of you who have studied Littauer who coached Gordon Wright who coached GM- is that a proper position is what is most effective and BEST for the horse if he has to carry you on his back and actually do something athletic. That has not changed in 20 years, and will not change in the next 20 yrs.

                              So, that's my story and I'm sticking to it, though perhaps it is essentially OT in what is going on on these threads. Original thread baffled me and I almost replied wondering if I had missed point of article or thread had departed from point of article.....so I am sure I am about to find out

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                mickey, I agree. While the hunt coat colors and in vogue breed may have changed, they are all still horses, and still require the same fundamental basics. Whether a TB hunter or WB dressage horse, the basics are the same. They may require a different type of ride, but the fundamental physics are the same. Hell, a medieval warhorse really shouldn't have taxed a modern rider that much; it's still just a horse, after all. Different tack, different look, still four legs and a brain

                                A large part of the reason that GM is deified (yes, you did use it correctly) is that he still does emphsize and teach the basics. I do think one can learn a great deal from him, and have been to his clinics. However, he is not the be-all and end-all. I've had several other teachers who have taught me the same lessons he had to impart; it's not the Holy Word. Most of it's just good basic horsemanship. If more people taught and learned it, I don't know if GM would be regarded so loftily. It's simply that he's one of the few "old school" horsemen still out there. Riders would be just as well served to pick up Littaeur--he sits on my shelf next to Morris--or even Alois Podhaijsky or Xeonphon. Across time or discipline, good horsemanship is good horsemanship.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Egioja:
                                  ... Oh, I also don't consider a hunter course even a course (I'm a jumper), they are just way to simple-your biggest challenge is riding the right number of strides down a perfectly measured line.
                                  <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  I debated whether I was going to post this since I don't want to hijack the thread and I don't want to seem like I'm singling you out Egioja, but this is a sticking point of mine: hunters is not jumpers over easy courses and lower fences.

                                  The biggest challenge is not getting the number of strides. It's getting a beautiful, impressive-looking jump while keeping a relaxed (not dead) pace, getting smooth changes, getting the strides, and making it look easy (ie. no obvious adjustments). The horses movement counts too. The way it was explained to me is that the quality of the jump is the most important thing--you should never sacrifice the jump to get any of those other factors I mentioned. In the reality of competition, you're not going to win if you don't get those other factors (say, the strides) because you'll be up against other horses that have nice jumps but also get the strides, the changes, the pace, and make it look easy.

                                  Sure the courses are simple because hunters are looking for different things than jumpers. You aren't going to win if you don't get the strides--but that's certainly not the biggest challenge for most horses!


                                  BTW: I always thought "sycophant" was a synonym for "suck up." So I guess "psychophant" means "psychotic suck up." Hey--that's my co-workers!



                                  "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Electric Tape:

                                    So I'm 4 for 4 and you chose not to answer number 5. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                    I have a more interesting discussion. Let's peel back the onion on why it's so important for you to be right. What's going on there? You made some valid points, most of which I agree with-- but why is our consensus so important to you? What's that about?

                                    LML

                                    *MidWest/Chicago Clique*
                                    "With mirth and laughter, let old wrinkles come" (Shakespeare).

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      From the previous thread:
                                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Just My Style
                                      Advanced
                                      posted Feb. 07, 2004 07:07 PM
                                      quote:
                                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      Would someone please pull the plug on ET?
                                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                      Gladly! I started this topic because I felt that the commentary by George Morris was worth reading and worth discussing. Many of the individuals have done just that. However, it is starting to develop in to a three ring circus with Electric Tape as the main attraction. S/he will now need to move on for attention somewhere else, because this topic will be closed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think this about says it... and the show under the big top continues.

                                      GA Clique/Drafties Clique
                                      Live Large- Ride a Drafty!

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                                      • #20
                                        Well I have to say this. Why is everyone getting up in arms with E.T. Her opinion is her opinion.

                                        BUT let me remind everyone she has disclosed she does not show and she apparently does not teach so she does not have an on hands experience of what is going on in the show ring and she is also still a pup. Experience will help educate her. GM has his valid points and he has some off the wall ideas also. But as of yet we are waiting for someone who is as talented a teacher and rider as he to pick up the reins when he passes on. For he is getting up there in years.

                                        Grand Prix courses today are to easy in the U.S. so where do our riders go to get the mileage of real courses of riding off the eye and moving up down a line . That would be across the pond. So I would definitely say todays riders are not as good as they should be.

                                        Flame suit on. Have a great weekend all.

                                        Flying Horse Feathers
                                        Flying Horse Feathers

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