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Buying a horse protocol..Trainer/no trainer

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  • #41
    Originally posted by aloysha View Post
    Thsi is a very odd situation, where trainer is not helping to find horses, except for this one very unsuitable horse, which belomgs to another client. But still feels the need to be included in every aspect, even though will not go to trial horses, will not help find horses, the whole situation is just odd. Trainer was upset because buyer called another barn with horses for sale nearby, and told buyer that that kind of thing was just not done. Trainer would call, and set things up, just more professional that way. But trainer doesn't do it. Buyer would like a horse sooner rather that later, and can't wait for trainer to get ass in gear!
    This seems odd to me too. Has friend said flat out--I don't want X horse, so lets move on? if not maybe she needs too. We recently had a situation in our barn where trainer wanted X horse, but girl just wasn't feeling it. So after the trial (and despite trainer really lobbying for the horse), the girl kept looking--trainer went with her--and they found a horse girl loved and trainer approved (for lack of better words).

    When I was looking (as a re-rider who had no business looking on her own), trainer would review video and was willing to go with me to look at a few I loved online. Ultimately, she found the horse I bought, but she definitely wasn't opposed to my choices (although she did point out problems in some bad ones; she never told me "no"). It helped educate me, and frankly, she told me she liked it when I sent videos because it helped her understand what appealed to me in a horse.

    Sounds like your friend may be best served by looking at other trainers....

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by kirbydog View Post
      From a trainers perspective, can't tell you how many times people who are non pros and THINK they are experienced buy a huge POS and then want the trainer to fix all the problems. Many years riding, does not an expert make
      If the trainer is not finding suitable horses, find a new trainer who will. Be very clear about your needs, your budget, what you can live with, as no horse is perfect, and what you can't do without. Much like buying a home. Then find a vet of your choice, and pay for the most thorough vet exam you can afford. Pay for a drug screen. Ask questions. If you can't take the horse on trial, as often you cannot, watch the seller ride it, watch your trainer ride it, and ride it yourself. Video tape the whole thing. Ask more questions!
      Not every trainer is out to hose people. If I have to live with a horse, and especially if I have to ride and show it, it damn well better be one that I like! THis is NOT an easy business to earn a living in, and it's a dangerous one. If someone wants to come to my barn with a bad jumping, lame, or generally dangerous horse, I have the right to say no thanks to them. They can board with me, but until they buy an appropriate horse, don't look to me to help.....life's too short.
      And look, I'm not saying the horse has to cost 6 figures or whatever; a $5000 short stirrup pony is a treasure. But a beautiful, athletic, rank stopper or whatever the inappropriate thing may be with the horse can cost you everything.
      Done with my rant. Amen.
      Agreed! The problem is that far too many trainers really seem to loathe the process and want to either get it over with by suggesting that the only horse in the price range and geographic area is THAT ONE, take it or leave it.
      I know plenty of trainers who will bust their butt, contact everyone they know, chat up every jackwagon at every horse show to find a suitable horse for a client. The OP needs to find one of them. It sounds like her trainer would prefer to end the process by just selling her one that another client is selling. Easy, no shipping, no travel, known health record and 2 commissions. If the buyer has stated that she doesn't care for the horse the trainer needs to start helping if they want to have an impact on what horse arrives in her barn. If you don't trust your client to shop on their own get out there and help them!
      F O.B
      Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
      Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

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      • #43
        Sorry to ressurect an older thread but....

        Like most interactions with others in life, these issues ultimately come down to communication issues/failures on the side of the buyer and the trainer/person being paid to ASSIST in vetting a horse.

        The Buyer has an obligation to set expectation with trainer reharding exactly what services/assistance they are paying another party to perform in advance......the reason the buyer is asking for help is because they feel that they need assistance in evaluating a horse......so what exactly is the trainer going to do to assist and what is the fee schedule/charge going to be?

        The Trainer has an obligation to outline to the buyer exactly what services they are going to provide.

        Ex: Trainer will inspect horse, point out obvious historical injuries/potential defects, condition of feet, conformation etc.
        Ex: Trainer will ride the horse before or after the buyer and will evaluate lateral movement, jumping over crossrails of x height, how the horse goes in a field/xc course, the trainer will/will not attempt to push the horses buttons to see how they react to potential/inevitable situations where the buyer is an unbalanced clutz.

        Any significant deviations from whats discussed/agreed upon in advance warrant discussion to prevent one or both parties from being upset/butt hurt.

        When you do a PPE/Vet Check, your vet is going to tell you up front EXACTLY what they are going to do to evaluate the horse AND provide a write up afterwards.........why would you expect anything less from the person/trainer who you're paying to help you evaluate the horse?




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        • #44
          Originally posted by JayP View Post
          Sorry to ressurect an older thread but....

          Like most interactions with others in life, these issues ultimately come down to communication issues/failures on the side of the buyer and the trainer/person being paid to ASSIST in vetting a horse.

          The Buyer has an obligation to set expectation with trainer reharding exactly what services/assistance they are paying another party to perform in advance......the reason the buyer is asking for help is because they feel that they need assistance in evaluating a horse......so what exactly is the trainer going to do to assist and what is the fee schedule/charge going to be?

          The Trainer has an obligation to outline to the buyer exactly what services they are going to provide.

          Ex: Trainer will inspect horse, point out obvious historical injuries/potential defects, condition of feet, conformation etc.
          Ex: Trainer will ride the horse before or after the buyer and will evaluate lateral movement, jumping over crossrails of x height, how the horse goes in a field/xc course, the trainer will/will not attempt to push the horses buttons to see how they react to potential/inevitable situations where the buyer is an unbalanced clutz.

          Any significant deviations from whats discussed/agreed upon in advance warrant discussion to prevent one or both parties from being upset/butt hurt.

          When you do a PPE/Vet Check, your vet is going to tell you up front EXACTLY what they are going to do to evaluate the horse AND provide a write up afterwards.........why would you expect anything less from the person/trainer who you're paying to help you evaluate the horse?
          This might be relevant if a buyer were simply hiring a trainer to help evaluate a horse prior to a purchase. But if the buyer expects to keep the horse in the trainer's program and have the trainer train the horse and/or the rider, that is a different set of expectations. Assuming the buyer wants to work with the trainer after a horse is purchased, the trainer and the buyer need to get on the same sheet of music before a purchase is made.

          The vet can give you his recommendation on a PPE and if the buyer rejects the recommendation, it is no skin off the vet's teeth. He'll happily come back and take the buyers money when the horse need injections, expensive diagnostics, etc.

          However, if the trainer makes a purchase recommendation and it is ignored, the trainer may get stuffed with the unpleasant task of working with a horse that is not suited for the job. There are tons and tons of threads on here wherein buyers are matched with unsuitable mounts and the whole thing goes south quickly.

          Step back for a moment. Trainer is saying "no thanks" to a commission and advising client the horse is not suitable for their needs. If trainer was all about the money, they would approve the first horse that came along. If trainer was all about the money, after the purchase, the trainer would tell the buyer they need to invest in tons of training rides and when those rides didn't produce the desired result, the trainer would tell client horsey isn't improving and needs to be sold. It happens. We've all heard the stories. Buyer may want to think a little harder when a trainer says "no" to an easy commission because the trainer doesn't think the match is a good fit for the buyer.

          This is an old thread, but a timely topic. Buyers need to communicate with trainers. And buyers really should try to listen to the advice that is provided by a seasoned trainer. Tons of buyers are looking for the same unicorn. Tons of buyers think if they scour the internet they will find a horse perfect for their needs at a faction of the real market value. It doesn't usually work out that way. Buyers are more likely to get taken for a ride. Buyers should try to be realistic about the type of horse their budget can afford. And, at least in H/J land, a beginner is well advised to seek the help of a seasoned expert; whether that be their trainer, or a highly knowledgeable friend.

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by OneTwoMany View Post
            If trainer was all about the money, they would approve the first horse that came along.
            That's assuming the commission paid by the buyer directly to his or her trainer is the only money said trainer is making off of the deal. I agree wholeheartedly that if in an actual program, buyer AND trainer need to be on the same sheet of music. There is always more than one way to skin a cat with regard to suitable horses for a particular rider and there are many amateurs who know enough to understand what may or may not be suitable for themselves, but it's no secret that buyer's commission to buyer's trainer is not always the only money that trainer is making on the deal.

            When many potentially suitable horses can be found by the proactive buyer these days (which is so easy now with social media and online sale sites that publish prices, or at least specific ranges) but the trainer is mostly only interested in dealing with his or her set of "trusted" contacts, it does begin to smell fishy. It smells particularly odd when each and every horse presented by trainer is noticeably inferior to similarly priced horses seen online and priced exactly at buyer's stated budget, never ever a dime under.

            We all know this happens. Let's not pretend it doesn't.
            http://www.poochpaddock.com/

            http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Po...4588358?ref=mf

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            • #46
              Originally posted by doublesstable View Post

              That is NOT the norm!!!! I would not be at any barn that rolled like that..... Sorry there isn't much you can do for your friend. It looks like friend will have to sink or swim here.
              Maybe not normal, but it happens at a LOT of barns, unfortunately.

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              • #47
                Originally posted by PoochPaddock View Post
                That's assuming the commission paid by the buyer directly to his or her trainer is the only money said trainer is making off of the deal. I agree wholeheartedly that if in an actual program, buyer AND trainer need to be on the same sheet of music. There is always more than one way to skin a cat with regard to suitable horses for a particular rider and there are many amateurs who know enough to understand what may or many not be suitable for themselves, but it's no secret that buyer's commission to buyer's trainer is not always the only money that trainer is making on the deal.

                When many potentially suitable horses can be found by the proactive buyer these days (which is so easy now with social media and online sale sites that publish prices, or at least specific ranges) but the trainer is mostly only interested in dealing with his or her set of "trusted" contacts, it does begin to smell fishy. It smells particularly odd when each and every horse presented by trainer is noticeably inferior to similarly priced horses seen online and priced exactly at buyer's stated budget, never ever a dime under.

                We all know this happens. Let's not pretend it doesn't.
                I will be the first to agree that the buyer should always ask for a BOS that spells out any commissions involved.

                And I completely agree that many ammies are experienced enough to shop on their own. However, I believe the original post involved a beginner who was dead set on a certain color of horse.

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by OneTwoMany View Post

                  I believe the original post involved a beginner who was dead set on a certain color of horse.
                  100% agree that the color requirement may be a tough criteria to fill for a beginner rider's search (even with a healthy budget). But communication between the rider and the trainer might alleviate some of the weight being given to that list item.

                  Communication between customer and service provider, i.e. trainer, is so important and I feel like it's lacking in so many instances. As is the idea that no matter the price of the horse or the level of the program involved, this is STILL a dynamic between a customer and a SERVICE provider - in a luxury service industry, no less. Some trainers do a great job of remembering that dynamic, others do not.
                  http://www.poochpaddock.com/

                  http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Po...4588358?ref=mf

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                  • #49
                    If your friends are not very experienced, I strongly recommend working with a professional. Obviously it should be a good one, whose opinion and network you trust! (If your inexperienced friends aren't working with someone like that, finding a better trainer should be step one, before finding a horse.)

                    It is true that trainers tend to insert themselves too much into the process, and that commissions can increase the price of horse shopping. But I have seen too many situations where well-meaning people make really poor purchasing mistakes, ending up with horses that are unsuitable, have known (but not directly disclosed) training problems, or have soundness issues. It is unfortunately the case that this industry is full of unscrupulous sellers, and they are likely to be on their worst behavior when dealing with a random amateur who will never do repeat business with them.

                    Finding out that the horse you bought is dangerous/rank/crippled and trying to solve that problem by passing it along to the next seller is a terrible experience that can cost you money, time, heartbreak, and potentially a broken bone. Better to find someone you trust, who knows how to evaluate horses, has good professional contacts, and can work with a good vet to make sure you end up on the right path.

                    My advice changes for people who really know what they're doing and prefer trusting their own networks and guts over paying a commission. But it does not sound like that description fits this particular buyer. The fact that color is a top consideration is alone a red flag.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by aloysha View Post

                      Wow, this is pretty much exactly the situation that is being pushed. Every horse that is found by potential owner is deemed unsuitable/lame/etc...just by video by trainer. I'm just a lowly onlooker, and trying to help this person, as a friend with some experience, and just find this whole experience wrong. Person is very inexperienced, and not sure who to trust anymore. Was given a lecture about trainers calling trainers, etc...not calling up yourself when you see an add about a horse you might like, that's just not done...etc
                      Ok, but then again if one of the buyer's central/mentionable criteria is a particular color, then maybe this buyer could use some professional help evaluating horses.

                      On a serious note: One of the reasons trainers want to be involved with/control-the-snot-out-off the buying process is because, going forward, this horse and the partnership with the riding owner is going to be the trainer's problem. If the pro thinks she can't get them to improve as a team, she is setting herself up for a long, slow world of hurt. And there's also money to be made in advising people to buy horses.

                      Does your friend like and trust this trainer, and wish to hire her after the horse is bought? If so, see if they can negotiate an agent/client agreement *before* they go shopping. If the relationship with the trainer will end afterwards, your friend can do what she likes without asking anyone's permission or advice.
                      The armchair saddler
                      Politically Pro-Cat

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                      • #51
                        Originally posted by Prime Time Rider View Post

                        That has to be one of the most ignorant posts I have ever read on this forum, and that's saying a lot. Really? When and where did you graduate from vet school?

                        You can diagnose if a horse is lame from a video? Three legged head bobbing lame, yes, but kinda sorta off? What if the video in question shows the horse cantering a course, but not trotting? You can tell if the horse is lame from that video???
                        I think plenty of seasoned horsemen can see lameness in a video. Heck, people post videos of NQR horses here and folks weigh in; more often than not, there's even a consensus about where/which leg it's in.

                        Diagnosis? As in finding the physiological cause of the lameness? Perhaps not. Then again, very few buyers should really be going further into a purchase if the first video they see shows lameness. There are people and situations where this can be a savvy bet. But I'd think hard before doing that, and I have a pretty good eye for soundness.
                        The armchair saddler
                        Politically Pro-Cat

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                        • #52
                          Originally posted by cherham View Post
                          Oh, and any Bill of Sale is made out directly to the purchaser who pays me directly. Not the trainer or any middle person. That way the actual purchase price of the horse is clear and transparent to everyone, including the tax man
                          I walked away from a purchase where the "agent" refused to allow me to talk to the owner and refused to have the owner be a signatory on the bill of sale/sales agreement. NOPE!

                          ~Veronica
                          "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                          http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

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                          • #53
                            Originally posted by OneTwoMany View Post

                            This might be relevant if a buyer were simply hiring a trainer to help evaluate a horse prior to a purchase. But if the buyer expects to keep the horse in the trainer's program and have the trainer train the horse and/or the rider, that is a different set of expectations. Assuming the buyer wants to work with the trainer after a horse is purchased, the trainer and the buyer need to get on the same sheet of music before a purchase is made.
                            Is this not the entire point of what I posted? Reposted below

                            If the buyer and person evauating the horse for them are not clear UP FRONT about what services are to be provided and some sort of agreement in writing before as well as written summary as a follow up a train wreck becomes a much higher probablility down the road not to mention lots of hurt feelings and drama

                            How many times have we all witnessed disasters as a result of he said/she said shenanigans that could have been prevented with a simple written contract/summary.

                            We all do it all the time with board agreements, vet service and most every other aspect of our lives so why wouldnt you and a trainer do the same?

                            At the end of the day everyone is free to move to another barn/trainer/vet, at the same time the barn/trainer are also free to say that they are not comfortable training/boarding a particular horse for any number off reasons.

                            Just say no to unnecessary drama

                            Originally posted by JayP


                            Sorry to ressurect an older thread but....

                            Like most interactions with others in life, these issues ultimately come down to communication issues/failures on the side of the buyer and the trainer/person being paid to ASSIST in vetting a horse.

                            The Buyer has an obligation to set expectation with trainer reharding exactly what services/assistance they are paying another party to perform in advance......the reason the buyer is asking for help is because they feel that they need assistance in evaluating a horse......so what exactly is the trainer going to do to assist and what is the fee schedule/charge going to be?

                            The Trainer has an obligation to outline to the buyer exactly what services they are going to provide.

                            Ex: Trainer will inspect horse, point out obvious historical injuries/potential defects, condition of feet, conformation etc.
                            Ex: Trainer will ride the horse before or after the buyer and will evaluate lateral movement, jumping over crossrails of x height, how the horse goes in a field/xc course, the trainer will/will not attempt to push the horses buttons to see how they react to potential/inevitable situations where the buyer is an unbalanced clutz.

                            Any significant deviations from whats discussed/agreed upon in advance warrant discussion to prevent one or both parties from being upset/butt hurt.

                            When you do a PPE/Vet Check, your vet is going to tell you up front EXACTLY what they are going to do to evaluate the horse AND provide a write up afterwards.........why would you expect anything less from the person/trainer who you're paying to help you evaluate the horse?

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by aloysha View Post

                              Wow, this is pretty much exactly the situation that is being pushed. Every horse that is found by potential owner is deemed unsuitable/lame/etc...just by video by trainer. I'm just a lowly onlooker, and trying to help this person, as a friend with some experience, and just find this whole experience wrong. Person is very inexperienced, and not sure who to trust anymore. Was given a lecture about trainers calling trainers, etc...not calling up yourself when you see an add about a horse you might like, that's just not done...etc
                              On the other hand, the buyer may think that the high knee-ed, long-maned, pinto 4yo Gypsy Vanner is just gorgeous and the trainer can probably tell in less than 4 seconds of video that it's a big nope.

                              Also, if the trainers professional contacts start getting inquiries from the client directly, and the client is clearly unsuitable for the horse, then those other trainers might be like, "wtf is up with this trainer's clients, can they not get their clients organized or what??"

                              So, it's probably best for trainer and client to come up with a joint horse finding strategy. Client is free to run as many videos past the trainer as they'd like, and then if one is mutually agreeable they come up with a strategy together for how first contact is made.
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