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AQHA Hunter Under Saddle (and now Reining!!). Update - AQHA Statement Pg. 5

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  • #61
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>How many times do you hear people say eventing dressage is not real dressage? Same type of thing here. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    And just as "eventing dressage" will not be changing its name anytime soon, neither is "AQHA HUS" required to. As a former-AQHA person and now eventer, I feel like I have a good handle on this situation!

    As to judging at open shows, that's a whole 'nother topic...the judging at open shows does not necessarily reflect on how AQHA shows are judged! How many of those judges are carded AQHA judges? I think we can all argue that what is winning at the open shows does not necessarily win at rated (either AQHA or USEF) shows. Personally, that's why I don't bother with showing at open shows anymore - no consistency in the judging. Geez, when I used to do them as a QH person, I was apalled at how poorly the hunter types went around; it was a pleasant surprise to go to the "A" shows and see a much better representation of the sport!


    • #62
      RugBug-you made the point I think you are arguing against.

      Field hunters and show hunters are different beasts.

      USAE hunters and AQHA hunters are different beasts...or show hunters and HUS hunters---just different beasts!

      The same way show hunters shouldn't have to change their name from hunters to show posers so as not to be confused with field hunters, AQHA HUS horses can keep that name as well!


      • #63
        LMH - no one is out there calling Field Hunters "regular working hunter" or "conformation hunter" etc. AQHA has taken a class designation from show ring hunters and turned it into something else.

        I guess I still feel that the point of the Hunt Seat classes within the AQHA is to demonstrate the versatility of the horse. I don't think the true versatility is showing through when the only thing that is occurring is a tack change and a lenghtened stride.

        There's also some feelings of the destruction of the breed because people are trying to meet certain requirements...didn't a previous poster just mention her QH that has so much TB in it you can hardly find the QH lineage? That to me is wrong. If you have to infuse so much TB to get a certain look, maybe accepting a different standard (and calling it something else) is a good idea.
        Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
        Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"


        • #64
          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Other:
          Wow, ok, it's late and I'm tired. I just put two and two together-we're talking auctions here, eh? Never claimed to be the brightest bulb in the box... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

          Yep, public auctions. I personally believe in published sale results very much. I can use them as a tool to help price similar horses off the farm and to see what bloodlines are selling well and which ones aren't and decide which sales I might be interested in consigning to based on past results. This is why I LOVE National Equine - they post results RIGHT AWAY. Professional Auction does ..... eventually post them but they take awhile. I understand the reason why, but disagree - sorry guys!


          • #65
            Semi-amusing and somewhat relevant as to what is a "hunter." A looooong time ago (I am VERY old....), a horse trial in which I used to participate simultaneously ran hunter classes. One was "on the outside course" and you could double enter the horse trial at whatever level/height you ordinarily competed and the round would count for both the horse trial and the corresponding hunter class. It was pretty funny, in that you'd see one rider in cross-country colors, followed by another in formal hunter attire. There were different classes - outside course/handy/regular/HUS for each hunter division and a championship award. Now, since most of the competitors were eventers, few had any trouble with the outside course, though they had to ride it a little more quietly (?) than they might otherwise have done, but SOME people came with their show hunters (not eventers), and heavens the fuss!!! They didn't want to DO the outside course, but were told they had to if they wanted to be considered for the championship in their respective divisions. And then - horrors! - the open class required them to jump OUT OF THE ARENA over a rail/ditch fence, and back in over a BANK!!! You never heard such carrying on. I don't know what they had expected, since the entry blank clearly stated the conditions.

            My jaw is dropped at the statement that the OPEN show standards are poorer than AQHA standards! Wow, I guess Strapless couldn't cut it in AQHA competition, eh? (were she a QH). Over the years, my Apps (and ApHC breed shows are judged pretty much the same as AQHA shows - the awards just aren't as good ) kicked butt over fences at breed shows, but barely got looked at in HUS because they carried themselves like open division horses. In Open shows, they placed consistently, spots and all. If you're talking about open schooling shows, well, that, as someone above mentioned, can be totally confusing - someone gets an AQHA judge and the open competitors are mad, and vice versa.


            • #66
              Open as in not USEF or breed association recognized! Sorry for the confusion Sandy M!

              At least in this area, "open shows" refers to any show that does not run under the rules of a national organization. Hence, judges are not necessarily qualified to judge (no credentials from a national organization), no drug testing...somedays it can be a bit of a free for all!

              And yes, depending on the judge's background (or lack of ), someone usually goes home unhappy from either the hunter crowd or the QH crowd. One of my best friend's daughter just finished competing at the State 4-H Horse Show (GA) - she was entered in the English Showmanship class and had an absolutely fabulous performance (she was 2nd in the Western Showmanship). After getting the gate from the judge, she found out that this "hunter" judge wouldn't place any horse whose mane was on the left side no matter how well they performed. It said so right in the judge's written notes!


              • #67
                WHOA!!! Glad that judge isn't a dressage judge!! My app's (2nd gen. TBX) mane falls to the left no matter WHAT I do to train it over to the other side, so I've long since given up. I get nice comments from most judges about my braid job - which is on the LEFT. Guess I better not take him into any "showmanship" classes. ROFLOL


                • #68
                  Awww....Rug Bug, I think you should let them have their AQHA HUS. Many disciplines have completely different worlds within them. Anyway, think of your beautiful scenery. I don't look at your mountains (are those mountains in the background of your photos?) and say they're not mountains because they don't look like my mountains.

                  And regarding TBs, it's how most of the famous QH bloodlines were created. Little late for us to start complaining about that now.


                  • #69
                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bea:
                    Awww....Rug Bug, I think you should let them have their AQHA HUS. Many disciplines have completely different worlds within them. Anyway, think of your beautiful scenery. I don't look at your mountains (are those mountains in the background of your photos?) and say they're not mountains because they don't look like my mountains.


                    Ah, Bea. I know nothing I say or think is going to change anything. I just like to be able to say it now and then. I've got quite a few unpopular opinions regarding QH/APHA's (which I love) and will share them occassionaly even if it makes people dislike me.

                    And really, those aren't mountains in my pictures. If I can ride my bike over them, which I have, they are DEFINITELY not mountains. Let's just call them hills and you can have your mountains.
                    Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
                    Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"


                    • #70
                      Believe me, RugBug, anything you say is sweetness and light compared to the things I say about ApHC as it steadily works to destroy my favorite breed. There's nothing wrong with a good (i.e., FOUNDATION line QH), but the ApHC seems determined to turn ALL Appaloosas (which should NOT be QHs) into (un)colored QHs. It stuns me that they will register horses that are 7/8th QH and have NO color, characteristics, or anything resembling Appaloosa conformation, and call them Appaloosas. They defend themselves by saying they are "improving" the breed (by destroying it?) because of those old, ugly Apps, but look at this website, and two stallions that are in the 90th percentile of Foundation Appaloosa breeding. I don't think anyone needs to "improve" them! (and they are NOT built like QHs):



                      • #71
                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
                        Maybe the "H" in HUS means hilltopper under saddle? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                        Well I did say I think QH are the finest sport horses in the world and, within the breed standards, you can get the kind of shoulder and hip for a knee snapping, crack back effort over the jump.

                        I showed breed shows alot and you do run into a few things you do not in an open show.
                        First off, 30% or so of the score is based on breed characteristics and conformation. So you can have a better round but lose to another with better conformation and type..because it is a breed show-showcasing conformation and type.
                        Second you get judges who are career team ropers or something...they just have no use for the postage stamp saddle. You can't change them..you can try to educate the younger judges but that will take some time.
                        Third, maybe they are trying to do too much asking a judge to cover everything from HUS to Hunter Eq to Reining to Western Horsemanship to Team Penning to Heading and Heeling to Cutting to Pleasure Driving.
                        I think that is a real problem..these guys are GREAT horseman and women but they cannot know everthing about every division they have to judge in a typical QH show.

                        If you want to concentrate on your horse's performance in a specific division? Go open.
                        If you have a nice individual that reflects breed type and conformation and is decent in whatever you are doing, go breed show.

                        Flame suit on...about that picture of the nice grey???
                        Well this topic was about peanut rolling WP horses and the new attempt to keep their polls above the withers or somewhere close anyway.

                        Well, this HUS has his poll about at the rider's knee. Let him come up in front and power off the hind end as nature intended and maybe that rear foot will track up somewhere near the girth as it should in one we look at for over fences work..instead of stabbing way short as it is now.
                        Good reach in front despite that..this is a nice horse I'd want to look at further...and probably would see used well, maybe use it myself, in HUS at a QH show based on overall type and quality.

                        But he'd never make a 12 foot line the way he's going now.
                        When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                        The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.


                        • #72
                          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by findeight:

                          Flame suit on...about that picture of the nice grey???
                          Well this topic was about peanut rolling WP horses and the new attempt to keep their polls above the withers or somewhere close anyway.

                          Well, this HUS has his poll about at the rider's knee.

                          But he'd never make a 12 foot line the way he's going now. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                          Ok, I'm glad someone else mentioned this as well. I didn't want to offend anyone, but really folks...I think this horse is adorable, (and I am really NOT a QH person), but come on.

                          If this was a demonstration of the demise of the "peanut roller" days, the situation seems pretty hopeless to me . While it doesn't look like he is drugged out of his gourd with his nose on the ground, his poll is still quite low (and lower than his withers). Any better examples of this new type anyone would care to share with us ignorant non AQHA folk??

                          By the way, those pics on the Confetti website are adorable!! I want a big tall leggy App jumper

                          On an entirely different note, will anyone shed any light on the reasoning behind not circling/moving out of ones position on the rail??
                          Lover of Nimmerdor, the Red Sox, and the jumper ring.


                          • #73
                            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Other:
                            By the way, those pics on the Confetti website are adorable!! I want a big tall leggy App jumper <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                            i LOFF him, and i want one so badly. wappaloosas, although more TB than app anymore, are also very cool.

                            i think the theory behind not circling is that it's distracting and takes away from the whole "quiet way of going" thing. as in, if your horse can't move as slowly as everyone else's, it must be hot.
                            "Cynicism is a sorry kind of wisdom" Barack Obama


                            • #74
                              I actually still am a QH person at heart..and this is way to low in front for me.
                              You don't circle off the rail because nobody ever circles off the rail. Winners never circle off the rail.
                              Someday a nice horse will circle off the rail and win..then all will circle endlessly because one did and won.
                              We are all a bunch of lemmings in the ring
                              When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                              The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.


                              • #75
                                That grey is just down the road from me. Wonder if they'll take a check?

                                65K for a horse that sold for a QUARTER of that a few months back? New definition of quarter horse, I guess.

                                And yes, the big pretty grey looks NOTHING like what a QH should, and he'd be happier with his damn nose OUT OF THE DIRT.


                                • Original Poster

                                  The problem with AQHA HUS is that the rule book is well written for a true hunter type. Horses with heads consistently below level / behind vertical are SUPPOSED to be, according to the rulebook, DISQUALIFIED (gated). Instead, they win. If I get caught in a bit check using an illegal bit, I am disqualified. The horse next to me with an equally illegal low head set wins. That is not fair. The judges are not following clearly stated rules, and that is why AQHA is taking notice of the problem. Exhibitors have to be able to rely on the rule book.

                                  Even though judges have caused the problem, they currently can only judge what is in front of them. The challenge is to now get the word out quicklty for exhibitors to raise head sets as judges do not want to be forced to disqualiify good horses with low heads. The gray SBW horse in the photo is a good example of what is winning currently. If AQHA is successful at convincing judges to follow the rulebook, he would not win with out raising his head.

                                  The big deal, to me, is that I would like to show my horses, especially babies, in the HUS as well as the Hunter Hack and Green Working Hunter classes. The rule book is written for that progression, but currently you cannot be competative in both areas at once. The Hunter Hack class has become the defacto flat class for the horses that jump. HH horses do look a lot more like true hunters. Winning HH and Working Hunters can and do cross enter into USEF AA shows without much frame modification.

                                  I really like the USEF shows, and my 16-3 Appx. QH has been Champion and Reserve at some nice AA shows (What a thrill! - some of the horses cost more than my house!). The problem for me is that I am getting older, and do not see myself jumping forever. AQHA shows offer more to do without leaving the ground, so I am taking the time to lobby for change to make it "the way it otta be".
                                  Comprehensive Equestrian Site Planning and Facility Design


                                  • #77
                                    Bit late getting into this, but I always thought the idea behind "Hunter" was the ability to jump at almost any time. In my mind, I would think that if they want to call it "hunt" anything, they would stick to that ideal. It would be like calling a red car blue. It's not really hunt anything, but they call it that b/c it's under english tack.

                                    Here in Alabama, the HUS class horses and riders (open or aqha)look and ride the same as the WP horses, just different tack. Neither are a truly useful frame/carrage, but that's what wins.

                                    IMHO, the gray on dream horse is way to heavy on the foreheand w/no engagement from behind. Far from being balanced.

                                    Our horses are TB's (I would never have another breed) and we tried a few open shows, but you can't win, so we quit and found eventing to be much more suitable.

                                    Flame on.......
                                    "There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots."
                                    -Member of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique!


                                    • #78
                                      HiJumpGirl - While JG Appaloosa Sport Horses freely stands to and breeds for sale App/TB crosses, if you check out the pedigrees on their web site, you should note that of their FIVE stallions, only ONE is a straight App X TB cross (Wap's Applause). All the rest are heavily foundation Appaloosa bred, as are both the stallions at Confetti Farms (Choklate Confetti and Butterwap Confetti). Since JG also line breeds, many of the babies it produces are also more App than TB. The other notable "WAP" horse, Wap Spotted, a son of Wap Spot 2, was out of an Appaloosa mare and is also more App than TB (if he has any TB in his pedigree at all - I don't THINK he does, but I'm not sure.)


                                      • #79
                                        Rugbug "Field hunters and show hunters are different beasts. I personally think SandyM's idea of classes for the field hunters is awesome. Give some credit to those amazing horses that just aren't fancy enough for the show ring."

                                        Actually some of the fanciest showhunters came from the hunt field. The hunt field is a great way to get jumping mileage in a group setting and teach a horse to be more athletic. And actually Regular Working Hunters were the field hunters and the Confirmation Hunters were the "show hunter". The USEF changes constantly like any other association.

                                        AQHA Judges can opt not to pin. What I have seen is they ask the "obvious offender" to leave and the class seems to straighten up, .

                                        Not all Hus horses are TB's with AQHA numbers. The sad thing I see is people starving the horse to look "leggy" like a "TB" instead.

                                        It would be nice to see "all prices for horses published" This way the consumer is more protected.

                                        The grey horse is an example of what the AQHA is trying to change. Yes he should be more level and under himself. The AQHA is actually giving free clinics at shows to show people what they are looking for to help the change. They also sent out an article in the QH Journal giving picture examples of what is correct and not correct. I am glad to see they are taking such a strong initiative to change. They also want to add Dressage to the AQHA point system, but instead of incorporating it into a class at an AQHA show, they are letting USDF points count in their association.


                                        • #80
                                          Skam- I realize that "working Hunters" was originally a class for horses that actually hunted in the field, but these days, most "working hunters" are just horses that weren't flawless enough in conformation to be conformation horses, or who have some old scar or injury (like an old, cold, bow) that disqualifies them from conformation classes. The working hunters are often as much "8 perfect fences in a perfectly groomed arena automatons" as any other hunter division. (Not that getting 8 perfect fences is necessarily easy!). Brilliance is rarely rewarded any more, and shows that have classes over an outside course, where you would really gallop, are almost non-existent.