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I was surprised to read that GM advocates....

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  • I was surprised to read that GM advocates....

    Dropping a horse in front of a jump right before going into the ring and purposefully causing them to hit their last warm-up (something that comes up often on poling threads)
    and giving a horse Bute/Banamine in "reasonable doses" throughout their career to keep them comfortable. Considering the rest of his training program, that wouldn't seem necessary anyways.

    I'm a huge GM fan, but those two comments (in Because Every Round Counts) surprised me quite a bit.

    opinions?
    "If we we couldn't laugh we'd all go insane, if we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane." ~Jimmy Buffet
    "Pursuing the life of my high-riding heroes I burned up my childhood days..."-Willie Nelson

  • #2
    Dropping a horse in the schooling ring is very common. If you have a less careful horse it can mean the difference b/t being in the prize money/possibly winning and having faults. It doesn't harm the horse in any way but a good rub is what you want before heading in to keep them sharp. It is not poling IMO as it is the horses own doing and people aren't making the fence 'jump at them'. I can't remember how many times George and several other BNT's I've worked/work with have repeated the mantra of wanting your rails at home and in the schooling ring.

    Bute/Banamine within legal limits are necessary for some seasoned campaigners. I don't think he's talking about just medicating for the sake of medicating but I'd, personally, much rather see a horse on a gram of bute during a show going around comfortably then a sore horse trying to do its job. Ideally they won't need anything (my horses are golden on adequan/legend and platinum CJ with nothing else) but they are animals, not machines and I know I appreciate a couple advil after a hard day of showing and all I'm doing is riding not physically jumping and landing hard repeatedly.

    Not really sure what the problem is....
    Last edited by hedmbl; Dec. 2, 2008, 07:20 PM. Reason: spelling

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    • #3
      Well, he's oldschool. Lots of the traditionalists and old guard guys do things a bit rough. Even McLain Ward, who was PV's protege, does his own little bit of it.
      Thus do we growl that our big toes have, at this moment, been thrown up from below!

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      • #4
        Why? Horses need reminders of their job. They need to know how to get themselves out of trouble. Since poling, offsets, swedish oxers, etc., are all illegal at shows, how do you propose to remind them in the confines of the schooling area? The horse isn't abused, he gets a rub, for Pete's sake.

        Bute/banamine, in therapeutic doses, do the same as a couple of aspirin for us. He doesn't mean they live on it. But at the end of a competition, they can have a comfortable night and rest day before resuming showing. Or, after a hard school at home. Coupled with a dose of Ulcergard or Gastrogard to protect the stomach, why not?
        Laurie

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        • #5
          lauriep said it perfectly.
          "A goal without a plan is just a wish."

          Comment


          • #6
            what lauriep said....sheesh
            "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
            carolprudm

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            • #7
              AMEN lauriep. IMO, some people on this board are getting bent out of shape over little things. Bute/Banamine and rubs are the LEAST of the worries of the horse show world.

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              • Original Poster

                #8
                Not disagreeing at all. It's funny how on some threads it is like PITA and on some threads it's like, gosh, they weigh 1500 pounds, they need a reminder every once and a while.
                "If we we couldn't laugh we'd all go insane, if we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane." ~Jimmy Buffet
                "Pursuing the life of my high-riding heroes I burned up my childhood days..."-Willie Nelson

                Comment


                • #9
                  Does nobody else read old threads? As in last page? Like this thread-- http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum...ad.php?t=35814?
                  ...Just goes to show that nobody's perfect.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Huntrs+eq View Post
                    Does nobody else read old threads? As in last page? Like this thread-- http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum...ad.php?t=35814?
                    ...Just goes to show that nobody's perfect.
                    That's common knowledge but this thread has nothing to do with poling, rather letting a horse get a rub on his/her own and the use of bute as a therapeutic agent No one said anyone was perfect.

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                    • #11
                      thanks LaurieP...
                      "Her life was okay. Sometimes she wished she were sleeping with the right man instead of with her dog, but she never felt she was sleeping with the wrong dog."



                      www.dontlookbackfarm.com

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                      • #12
                        it is simple good horsemanship to remind your horse to pick up those hooves! as to bute? inflammation takes much more of a toll than most are willing to recognize. judicious use of bute is not only reasonable, it is imperative.

                        there is NO dosage of bute which will make a compromised horse sound.

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                        • #13
                          Sorry--not intending to attack him. Just wanted to point out another method he advocates (that some may find surprising). I think all these methods, when used conscientiously, should be acceptable.
                          Last edited by Huntrs+eq; Dec. 2, 2008, 08:59 PM. Reason: eek-did not see other "poling" thread

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                          • #14
                            To me... a dose of bute/banamine is no different than those of us that take a morning tylenol or aspirin... I know I take something when I've been walking the hard ground at a show for consecutive days! If a horse is not sound a bit of bute or banamine is not going to conceal it.

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                            • #15
                              Getting a rub doesnt work. Simple as that.

                              With most horses you can get him to give a little extra air over 10 or 12 fences he's going to handle anyway, but on the one fence where you get too close, too slow, whatever, the horse with the rub will give up and hit it in a way that he's sure the fence rather than the horse is the one that's coming down.

                              Just one more way George Morris is behind the times and not worthy of serious attention.

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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Big Yellow Taxi View Post
                                Getting a rub doesnt work. Simple as that.

                                With most horses you can get him to give a little extra air over 10 or 12 fences he's going to handle anyway, but on the one fence where you get too close, too slow, whatever, the horse with the rub will give up and hit it in a way that he's sure the fence rather than the horse is the one that's coming down.

                                Just one more way George Morris is behind the times and not worthy of serious attention.
                                So obviously you've never had a horse that it worked on. That doesn't mean that it doesn't work. And I don't know what you're implying that dropping a horse in front of a fence does.....I've certainly never had any of mine think that the options were a) the fence falls or b) they fall.

                                I had a horse for a long time who tended towards getting lazy over great distances (he'd jump the hell out of a bad distance and NEVER touched a rail in those cases), but often just barely dragged his hind end over the first or second fence in the class. Getting a rub before we went in often meant the difference between winning and not placing. You can bet your ass that we got a rub as often as we could by the time we got up to the big money classes.

                                And while there are (of course) horses that will react in the way you've described, there are just as many who don't.

                                As with EVERYTHING IN LIFE....a tool is just that. It's not inherently good or bad. Applied appropriately and thoughtfully it can help make a difference between the winner and everyone else. A tool applied inappropriately (whether it be to the wrong horse or wrong rider, or the tool itself applied with the wrong intent) of course has the potential to do more harm than good. And both of the things mentioned (dropping a horse in front of a fence and poling) CAN be tools.

                                As for George Morris.....he's a gifted horseman. I don't think his intent is that ALL horses should be dropped in front of a fence or that ALL horses should be given bute or banamine all the time, and certainly not that drugs should be used to mask lameness so that a horse can be shown. I think his point is that both things *should* be acceptable as in the majority of the cases neither are inherently dangerous or bad. I mean seriously....don't you ever take aspirin at a show? Or the day after exerting yourself particularly hard?
                                __________________________________
                                Flying F Sport Horses
                                Horses in the NW

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                                • #17
                                  Nahhh. I dont exert myself much.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I have no problem with the moderate, legal use of bute/banamine to help a horse feel good. I take Advil at the end of a long show day, too.

                                    I find the idea of purposely and routinely dropping a horse in front of a fence unsettling. I would worry that it would simply teach my horse that I am not to be trusted in directing him, and eventually get us into big trouble some time when he really NEEDED to trust me. (I screw up often enough without doing it on purpose! ) But perhaps that's the eventer talking, and hunters don't worry about it...
                                    Proud member of the EDRF

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Sometimes older or less careful horses who routinely gets ridden to perfect spots will become a little blase and overconfident and in need of a little reminder.

                                      It's mostly not a matter of purposely blowing a jump out as that wold perhaps scare a horse (that wasn't completely dead in the legs Lol). Lying to him and riding him through the distance can certainly be something he will start to hold against you after a while.

                                      Dropping him is not about making him take a bad spot but rather about finding a somewhat forward distance to the base and simply letting the horse deal with what's coming up rather then helping him out.
                                      Kind of saying "Here's the jump, you figure it out!"

                                      If you get a rub, good. If he shortens himself up and pats the ground, then he's already paying attention and probably good to go.

                                      IMO This kind of ride can certainly help you while on course also. If your horse is getting used to having to think for himself when you drop him he will most likely back himself up and make a bigger effort if you end up seeing the same distance somewhere else.
                                      Timothy, stop lurking

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                                      • #20
                                        I think there's a difference between what GM means when he says dropping a horse in front of the fence and purposely getting a rub and what most amatures think when they hear dropping a horse in front of a fence. If simply accidently dropping them in front of a jump made a horse jump better most ammy horses would jump the heck out of almost everything...

                                        As far as bute and banamine... I think that they ought to be allowed (say 2 grams) for horses over a certain age and jumping under a certain height. Say horses over the age of 10 jumping 3ft or under.

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