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Date Allocation Task Force Report

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  • Date Allocation Task Force Report

    <A HREF="http://www.usef.org/documents/executive/compDateATF12172004-2.pdf" TARGET=_blank>USEF Task Force Report

    Posted on December 22, 2004 but on December 13, 2004 the Officers of USEF decided it was an "Extraordinary" Rule Change proposal and therefore would not need to go through the committee procedures. On December 15, 2004 it passed legal and on December 22 was published on the web to be passed into Rules at the Convention in January.

    So we have Licenses that have no price tag! We don't know what it will cost we don't know the terms and conditions or the rules to comply and there will be no discussion so I guess we will see very soon if shows are better or just more expensive.
    http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org
  • Original Poster

    <A HREF="http://www.usef.org/documents/executive/compDateATF12172004-2.pdf" TARGET=_blank>USEF Task Force Report

    Posted on December 22, 2004 but on December 13, 2004 the Officers of USEF decided it was an "Extraordinary" Rule Change proposal and therefore would not need to go through the committee procedures. On December 15, 2004 it passed legal and on December 22 was published on the web to be passed into Rules at the Convention in January.

    So we have Licenses that have no price tag! We don't know what it will cost we don't know the terms and conditions or the rules to comply and there will be no discussion so I guess we will see very soon if shows are better or just more expensive.
    http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org


    • #3
      hmmmm.........interesting. What I don't get:

      1. What would be the inducement/benefit to a non-rated local show to become "affilated" or "endorsed?" If I'm reading it correctly, there is a fee for this (unspecified amount) but I only see the ability to use USEF rules and report results (via a software system that also doesn't have cost/benefit info listed) as the benefits. Maybe I'm missing some?

      2. Rated shows seem to be held to standards, but those standards don't exist and won't exist before 2007. Will they be retroactive, or just apply for the one year? How will the standards be enforced/evaluated -- competitor input? Independent site evaluations?

      3. There's a lot of mention of standard electronic reporting and software to do so. Having just been through a very ugly (and non-functional) software debacle with a client company...where is this system coming from, who is paying for it and what is the benefit to competitors?

      Just wondering...Oh, and dumb question -- this only affects H/J shows?

      updated to add: Nothing on the USHJA website on this as of the moment. As the affiliate, maybe they're planning to address some of this, especially for the non-rated shows? Anyone know?


      • Original Poster

        No this is supposed to apply to all disciplines and all Affiliates. I am concerned because in addition to what you already cited it says that any Affiliate can decide on which level the show belongs. So for example an unrecognized show could be determined by it's Affiliate as an endorsed show to be a level 2 or 3 = A/AA Rated.

        It would seem to me that it would then make sense for all the shows to drop licenses go unrecognized and be buddies with their Affiliate so they can have the highest rating since the Affiliate would determine the Standards.

        That seems to me too much of an opportunity for self serving special interests to avoid paying their share of the bills. The Local show would be done for, and I can't imagine much reason why any show would be licensed as C/B Rated. But perhaps that's the way they plan to open the Calendar.
        http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org


        • #5
          Ok, who wants to provide the layman's, non-horse show administrator, brief summary of the key points and their implications?
          Lover of Nimmerdor, the Red Sox, and the jumper ring.


          • Original Poster

            I'm tired so the short and skinny for a competitor is that there is a merger of unrecognized shows with Licensed shows.

            No one knows how this will affect USEF Rated Divisions and Classes since the Rule Book we just received would be out of sync.

            There are no more Local Members Shows if this is passed. They are in Level 6 which does not require Rules be followed, licensed officials , medic, insurance.

            C=level 5
            B=Level 4
            A=Level 3
            AA=Level 2
            New=Level 1

            An affiliate can decide an Endorsed Show is any level it thinks is good for the show.

            We don't know what a License will cost. We don't know the terms and conditions. We don't know the Show Standards but anytime the USEF thinks there is a better show they can end the License.

            I don't see how this is going to make better shows because managers will be reluctant to make investments based on a nebulous future. They can change their mind about the Rating of the Show up to 30 days ahead.

            The Prize List is do at the USEF 40 days ahead after printing. That means that we might print a Prize List thinking we had an A Show and they might decide it's only a C Show so the competitors will get C points instead of A points. There are no descriptions of what or why that change might be made. I suppose that means we could have 3 day C-Shows.

            Beyond that it's pretty hard to tell you because nothing is written in and everything is by special agreement in writing. Mileage rules can change quarterly and for some reason Long Island has seceded from New York. Mileage will fluctuate quarterly within a state and then might change too depending on what states do next door and the lowest mileage will count for at least some part of the year. It's is totally unmanagable and unenforceable. Numbers will rule the world rather than quality.

            It doesn't say how all these decisions will be made or by whom.
            http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org


            • #7
              Oh Snowbird, thanks so much!

              What does it mean by New? Is that a show that didn't previously exist before this rating system? And does it get a level assignment the following year?
              Lover of Nimmerdor, the Red Sox, and the jumper ring.


              • #8
                In case you ask later...YES I AM POLLYANNA !!

                The Task Force Report CLEARLY states in its opening sentence that
                <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> It is expected that the full implementation of the new date approval process will take at least 3 years. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                The report then repeats itself over and over..."reccommends" and "recommendations"...

                This process is not an easy one...neither was giving birth!! That is what is happening here....WE,,YES WE..are giving birth to a new concept and process and it will be painful and grinding...BUT WORTH IT IN THE LONG RUN.

                For so many years all we have heard is the ear shattering whinning and complaining about AHSA and so on.......the nerve shattering ROAR of "everything needs to change" "nothing is fair" "what about the local shows"...and so on ad nauseaum.

                Now WE have a chance to roll us our sleeves and dive in and help create the changes we want.

                There are sooooooooooo many people who have devoted a huge amount of hours to at least TRYING to listen to all the gripes and complaining...they have at least come up with recommendations and ideas.

                GOOD FOR THEM......ANYTHING I CAN DO TO HELP....I WILL. Do I agree with everything...NO I DO NOT.

                And I spent my hard earned money to go to the Conventions and stand up and be heard. I did not make alot of them happy BUT I stood up and said what I had on my mind again and again and again...and I took alot of your ideas with me. They may not have agreed but they listened and I listened.

                I think if we listen and chip in and HELP we can all make a difference.

                Read the "REPORT" carefully, offer ideas, voice your CONSTRUCTIVE ideas and critisims and BE HEARD.

                This is still in process.........my dear ole' dad always said....
                <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> You are either a part of the solution or you are apart of the problem...the choice is yours.! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                My choice is to try to be part of the solution...I may not like everything BUT change is inevidible.

                Good for the Task Force Committee/group/team or whatever they are. They had to start somewhere and this first swack at it is a good start...IMHO!!

                I can hardly wait to see details as they take shape!!


                • Original Poster

                  Kathy Pollyanna is not what I would call it. They decided to make these changes which are a work in progress "extraordinary"
                  on the 13th, legal approved them on the 15th and they were published on the 22nd of December. The Meeting is in 20 days and no one knows what's happening. No definitions, no criteria, nothing that is as promised "definable and Measurable". Not even even how much and yet these rules go into effect for the 2006 shows so they become effective 102 days past the Meeting at which no one gets to discuss them or even get to understand them.

                  Does that really sound like a plan to you?
                  http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org


                  • #10
                    It sure does to me......BUT I don't read the Report with a negative eye.....I read it looking forward to changes and progress....

                    If I have questions I email directly to USEF and USHJA and ask questions and they always respond...heaven knows they may get tired of my emails BUT they do answer ALL of them.

                    I do not run around like chicken little...the sky is NOT falling!!!!


                    • #11
                      I'm interested in what data they want to capture with the new electronic filing system and what the data will be used for. And of course, how they will secure the data from unauthorized use.
                      I notice that 'Associated Competitions' are outside the Licensed structure but they will be required to submit their entry address list to USEF.
                      Fan of Sea Accounts


                      • #12
                        I've sent this info to my local unrecognized horse show association (whom I've promised to help with some marketing/PR next year as part of my "shut up or get involved already" decision). One question I don't get...

                        Are local unrated shows like the Baltimore and Harford County circuits (www.hhsamd.org, www.bchsa.org and others like this) going to be REQUIRED to have USEF Level 6 "rating" now? Will they be required to join USHJA or something?

                        Just trying to figure out what changes if any are in store down here...


                        • #13
                          An observation from an old person. As a "child" I understood what the AHSA and USET was,I understood thr rules, I understood the premise. as an "Adult" I have no idea what the USEF, USHJA or what ever the current intitials are trying to accomplish, what they stand for, or what they who they are trying to help.It has become so complicated and so fragmented , I haven't even renewed my USEF membership. If I were a promoter , right now I would line up my sponsorship money and run my own show.. As long as the facility is good, organization good , footing good , and prize money guarenteed , You will fill your stalls. When the powers that be finally figure this mess out then become a recognized show. Until then, Who needs the hassle. Sorry just my honest opinion. This is one BIG MESS , What the horse show world needs is a "Bert DeNemethy" to take over and spell it out..


                          • #14
                            With all due respect Mike...I don't think the mess IS, I think the mess WAS !

                            Date "ownership" was a mess, the milage rule was for the "big" guns, date allocation was automatic and not reversable....and so on. We lost the "middle American rider" and shows in the process.

                            I don't know about where you are but here the 'B' and 'C' and "Local" shows are all but non-existent....there just arn't any anymore (with only a handful of exceptions.)

                            Horse shows that would never survive in the "open" market keep right on ticking because there was NO way to stop bad management shows.

                            Local Associations, which IMHO, have their hands on the real heartbeat of what is happening in their communities..YET they got NOTHING out of being AHSA members.

                            Yes, it looks a bit like a "mess" right now..BUT

                            Let me give you an example....my great aunt came to visit and she uses a walking cane. My house was unaccessible to her except for the living room couch.

                            I tore my entire house apart to make it "user friendly" to her. IT WAS A TOTAL WRECK IN THE PROCESS!!!!!!! Stuff all over the place as I moved it from one room to the other, unloaded book shelves, removed throw rugs that would trip her. But now she can go anywhere in the house with ease.

                            Friends came over to visit while I was in the process and they asked what Tornado had come through!!!! They had no idea what I was going to do with all the stuff........

                            But it got done and the entire place is better for it. I shoused away the negative conversationalists and was THRILLED to accept help from friends who just wanted to pitch in and help get it done.

                            I loved their ideas, took their advice and was sooooooooooooo thankful for their help.

                            I kind of look at this re-organization the same way....

                            We may have understood USET and AHSA but our sport outgrew that simplicity...saddly but it did....and it outgrew it because it is absolutely BIG money now..then it was not.

                            Our sport IMHO is capable of REMAINING A HORSE SPORT, with the best interest of the horse in mind, but it absolutely must undergo a "house cleaning" and revamp...and that is what is happening.

                            Interesting to me that some of the people bad mouthing this process, and it is a PROCESS, are the same people who were so negative about the old system......I don't think they will ever be happy no matter what is done.

                            Please, Mike, get on the way, pitch in and help move the kitchen table....Auntie Anne can't get to it....


                            • Original Poster

                              Kathy your demeaning attitude towards anyone who does not agree with your unrealistic and illogical approach to this topic does not speak well for an open mind but a locked door.

                              You have your view. I personally donot think it is wise to be be standing on the railroad track with a freight train coming at me and try and pretend it isn't there.

                              Unlike Chicken Little I can look up and I know the sky is not falling down. But how can you be sure that the freight train is not really there?

                              My point has to do with proving you are wrong in the sense that there will be no discussion. By making the proposed changes an "extraordinary" rule change proposal it will not come up for discussion at any meeting anywhere except out in the hallway. So when you speak of the evolution of ideas they don't exist in that environment.

                              Whether or not the concept of Licensing is good or bad is not even an issue. But when dialog is prevented it makes me very suspicious that perhaps it will not bear scrutiny in the light.

                              There is no proposal because the offer on the table has no price tag. No show knows what a license fee will cost. And if they sign a 3 year contract it says it can change. There aare no definitions of the terms and conditions at all. We were promised they would be "definable and measurable". There is no definition of what is included in a Competition Evaluation.

                              In July at the mid year meeting the General Counsel said its purpose was to prevent further litigation. It will not. It will cause more litigation if the terms of the contract are not clearly defined. No lawyer would ever permit a client to sign on for a License that has no clear definition of the terms and what the client will get under what conditions for how long and how much.

                              That's just plain business sense perhaps you are not familiar with the concept. If you want a mass exodus of horse shows and competitors then I suppose you will be pleased it will certainly be easier to be horse of the year if 98% of the Competition is longer eligible.
                              http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org


                              • Original Poster

                                Hopeful Hunter no show can be forced to participate in the USEF new concept of Licensing. Any unrecognized show series should continue on it's merry way and enjoy life.

                                This is just an option that those who have been unrecognized and prefer not to be members of USEF can if they like participate. They do not need to be recognized except by their Affiliate and they can be Associated.I understand this is a common thing in for example Eventing.

                                Or they can be Endorsed and in that case any show Endorsed by an Affiliate can become any level show that the Affiliate chooses to find it whether or not the members are part of USEF. USEF Member can be disregarded if you are a member of the Official Affiliate Association.

                                There shows can choose which rules they wish to enforce, and wich they choose to ignore. They are not required to use the rule book, hire licensed officials have a medic or insurance.

                                Therefore, if there is some reason why they think it would be an advantage to give USEF a fee and their mailing list then they can join the program.

                                Read what is written and it's clear. What I object to is that the definitions are not defined, that decisions will be made by transient employees and that this is being ramrodded through without dialog. It is quite possible that with such dialog they could make their point.

                                I am weary of the general paranoid attitude that assumes all show managers are thieves and therfore require supervision, that all Stewards are their dishonest pawns aand that the judges all have a vested interest in those with special benefits to offer them.

                                That is what I find depressing and demeaning about the proposal. I do not think that a $10.oo an hour office worker can make better decision than the business people earning their living from this sport.
                                http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org


                                • Original Poster

                                  Mike MCS you are absolutely correct. This is a mess or a train wreck about to happen. I have not yet unwrapped my Rule Book and there are 29 pages of new rules that can be passed at the Annual Meeting.

                                  You are not the only one who doesn't have a clue and is totally confused we all are equally. I spoke with two Members of the Board who had not been informed and have no idea what is on the table. They are not electronically connected.

                                  Kathy while I'm sure it is very therapeutic for you to write your suggestions and while they are most likely tossed in the giant round file I agree with you that I'm sure it really makes you feel good and very important. I am too old to be so easily pacified.
                                  http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org


                                  • Original Poster

                                    Pine Tree Farm, I am not only interested in what information they can collect with a two exchange between computers, I want to know what kind of back-up system is in place so that a virus planted in one computer does not open the whole system to a catastrophic crash of all the computers. I want to know what safeguards are in place to make sure that spyware is not implanted in all our computers and the information about our purchasing habits is not sent out to unscrupulous third parties.

                                    I am offended by this perpetual condemnation of Show Managers and the willingness to trust the system to perfect strangers from where we do not know and for what reason we do not know. As show managers we have kept your secrets and we have not shared your information nor has anyone I know of except the USEF sold your information to anyone.

                                    It is a fact that what we do on the computer is like broadcasting to open lines and anyone can tune in at any time.
                                    http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org


                                    • #19
                                      Khobstetter & Snowbird.... thank you for responding to my post. Like others I don't often jump into the frey of Horse Show Politics. Why is that? Why doesn't the adverage Horse Show'r get involved. Maybe because it's so confusing, doesn't directly apply to anything thier connected with, and we don't exactly see the upper management coming to us asking for help.
                                      I watched a similar organization ruin a sport by trying to make it better. In 1990 the American Motorcycle Racing's Dirt Track Division was experiencing a huge growth, everywhere from the local amatuer level to the top of the Pros, grandstands were filled, purses where good,& Amateur Championships had huge #'s . It was going strong, Then the Governing body (AMA) stepped in to make it better. The consequence within 5 years, numbers declined, and now the division barely exsists on a Pro Level not to mention the Amatuer level at this point.. How'd they'd screw it up. They saw the numbers and wanted a bigger piece of it. More money for the AMA and big money sponsors. No Longer was the small sponsor of interest. The grass roots level that had resurected the disipline was no longer needed, The AMA would now take over, and make it better. It's a fond memory now and will never ever again exsist on a level accessable to everyone. Khobsetter, you asked about my area . We have at least 4 local level Hunter/Jumper assco. in Michigan. A person in a lower middle class income bracket can actually find an association to go show on with out going broke. We have enough of a varity that we can actually go from a local level to (thanks to the Rheinheimer's) a AA show within a couple hundred miles of anywhere in the state.. If you want to show in Michigan you can. What's going to happen to that with this new disorganization. This is the scarey part. We do have a "SPORT " here and the old saying don't try to fix what isn't broke really comes to mind. Opinions vary I know. But where is the data from the members. Where is the survey that asks of all it's members how can the horse show world be made better. want real Data.. then ask the real people who compete, The barns that make their living off of horses the people that remember "when" and live in today.I think every horse magazine in the country would print a survey for free, every barn would give one to there clients. If a person felt thier opinion was really wanted maybe then they would step up to the plate. JMHO


                                      • #20
                                        Snowbird....knew you would try to make it personal.....Thanks for not letting me down...
                                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Kathy while I'm sure it is very therapeutic for you to write your suggestions and while they are most likely tossed in the giant round file I agree with you that I'm sure it really makes you feel good and very important <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Kathy your demeaning attitude towards anyone who does not agree with your unrealistic and illogical approach to this topic does not speak well for an open mind but a locked door.
                                        My Lord your comments are a hateful thing......you just can't resist being nasty...ewwwwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!

                                        I will resist taking your lengthy, non-sensical posts and tearing them apart and then getting personal....I will resist...I will resist...I will resist...

                                        Mike...great ideas and input....PLEASE write the organizations with ideas and suggestions....you sound like you have some sense of what is needed in your area....PLEASE pitch in and be heard!!!!