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That pony lawsuit...OMG you have to see those Heritage Invoices

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  • Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
    I'd hazard a guess that the radiographs taken during the PPE showed rotation, but the buyer was not informed of it.
    IIRC, that is alleged in the complaint. Those radiographs and when they were taken are essential. However, the coffin bone (not named as such) is described as "rotated" but the complaint doesn't say how many degrees.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat

    Comment


    • Originally posted by mvp View Post
      You and I are confused about a couple of things.

      1. How do these invoices relate to the claim that Heritage Farm did no wrong (or some other part of their defense like "Hey man, the client knew the trainwreck of a pony she was buying"?).

      2. Why did Heritage Farms make these documents public? What was their purpose in doing so?

      I tried to find them on RateMyHorsePro where I hoped I'd find some kind of contextualizing introduction that would answer my question. I failed.

      Anyone?

      Otherwise, comingback, you need to read the complaint to figure out why the suit is happening. Nothing about these invoices say anything one way or another by themselves. This thread is just a spin-off generated by the release of those, that's all.
      According to Heritage (and this is THEIR position vis-a-vis the motion to dismiss, I am taking no position on the correctness)... the complaint alleges that Heritage is liable as the seller of the pony. Heritage is claiming that it was not the seller, that Bibby Hill was the seller. Heritage moved to have the claims against it relating to sale of the pony dismissed. In order to succeed on that motion, Heritage has to prove facially that it was not the seller. Heritage attached documents to its motion to make that proof, including the bill of sale between the plaintiff and Hill.

      Heritage also alleges that it simply boarded the pony/trained the rider, it was not the seller/sales agent. Presumably the argument goes that if Heritage was the seller/sales agent, there'd be a commission charge/sale charge on those invoices and there isn't (this is not spelled out well, I am reading between the lines a bit here). Heritage believes the invoices show it just boarded and trained, nothing more. So the invoices support Heritage's argument in favor of dismissal that it was neither the seller nor sales agent.

      Basically, Heritage is trying to get out of the case by saying that the allegations in the complaint relate to the sale of the pony and Heritage wasn't responsible for the sale. That's the nutshell gist of the motion to dismiss.

      I don't see Heritage making the argument that the seller knew the pony had problems before the purchase.

      Once the invoices were attached to a public filing, they became public documents. And now we've all seen them.
      ~Veronica
      "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
      http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        Dear client,

        You will never believe this! I found the perfect pony for you to invest in, that your child can ride for a year before we resell it. It is only $175,000 and you will need to spend about $15,000 per month for one year before you place it on the market. So just think, you will pay $175,000, a 15% commission on top, and $180,000 for a grand total of $381,000. I can't wait to sell if for you for a profit and get another 15%. I am not too worried that it showed some little thingys on its xrays during the PPE at 6 years old. Those changes will go away.

        Certainly we could lease your little booboo a competitive pony for $75,000 a year but don't you want to just own it?

        By the way, they have someone ready to write the check tomorrow for it so we need to decide today.

        Lovingly, your agent
        Anthony 'Tony' Soprano Sr.: If you can quote the rules, then you can obey them

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Lucassb View Post
          The last year I had a horse at WEF for the season, a couple of years ago, I seem to recall it was around 12 grand.
          I'm assuming I'm at the absolute bottom income rung on this forum as a working university student, but that is a LOT of money for me. I'm finding it hard to sympathize with any of the parties involved.

          Comment


          • vxf111...thank you for putting what I was thinking in a much more logical post. I think I have to work on my writing skills

            Comment


            • Yeah, thanks for the explanation, vxf111. I do see how the puzzle piece fit together better now.
              The armchair saddler
              Politically Pro-Cat

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
                I'd hazard a guess that the radiographs taken during the PPE showed rotation, but the buyer was not informed of it.
                This is the part that I don't get in this situation: why would Heritage need to bother with a pony with problems? The client in this case had the money to buy any pony, I'm sure they could've found a suitable one with a good vet record. Afterall they seem to make their money from the showing, you'd think they would choose one that would hold up! (not including older, well-established ponies that might have some issues).

                That's what makes me question whether the pony did indeed have anything pre-existing. Part of me thinks the pony went lame after the family left Heritage, and the mother is just looking for someone to blame.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Button View Post
                  I'm assuming I'm at the absolute bottom income rung on this forum as a working university student, but that is a LOT of money for me. I'm finding it hard to sympathize with any of the parties involved.
                  You don't need to have sympathy for the uber-rich if you don't want to. But *do* have gratitude when they pay what it costs to try and keep horse traders honest. You and I don't have enough money to litigate that, yet we benefit.
                  The armchair saddler
                  Politically Pro-Cat

                  Comment


                  • I agree with fordtraktor. We retired to that area of Florida, and stayed for 3 years before we moved to the next state north. I went to spectate at the winter circuit and saw nothing that I didn't see and participate in at AA shows when living in California. I will put on my flame suit for this, but there really isn't any difference between the top on the West Coast & the top on the East Coast. I know that you think you ride better, have better horses, have better trainers, but no, not really. What you seem to have is more $$$$ to be spent foolishly. It must be fantastic to be so wealthy that you think that spending over $400 on shoeing for a pony is "normal." Maybe for you it is, but do you think it is ok to be taken advantage of just because you are "rich?" I realize that the wealthy do nothing for themselves, they have "people" who do it for them, whether it is trainers, farriers, grooms, etc. Hey, if they don't mind spending the $$, who am I to say anything. However, the Hunter/Jumper industry is beginning to look like the population of our country, the "haves" and the "have nots!" Where it was possible not that long ago to take a horse up through the levels to the top on a budget, if you had the horse, the talent, and the drive, I'm not so sure that it can easily be done today. When I left California, I purchased a helmet for $68.00. Today that helmet is $650.00. We're only talking about 10 years here, not 50. $700 for a bridle is considered "normal?" I always made up my own horses, showed them at all levels, and was competitive at all levels. My DD did the Jr. Hunters, the Jumpers, and Eq all on the same horse. Of course it was the early 90's where there was nothing considered abnormal about a versatile TB that was talented enough to do it. My DD showed against Lauren Hough & Megan Johnstone a good deal of the time and held her own. I've left the industry, as I am old and don't desire to jump anymore, and really, the industry is for the young. There are many other things to do with a horse, however, and the breed associations and reining, which is now my discipline, welcome people like me. It is a heck of a lot cheaper too, with none of the drama of the H/J industry. At least if you want to spend $700 on a bridle for a reining horse, it is going to have LOTS of sterling silver, which is an investment in itself!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by anotherera View Post
                      I agree with fordtraktor. We retired to that area of Florida, and stayed for 3 years before we moved to the next state north. I went to spectate at the winter circuit and saw nothing that I didn't see and participate in at AA shows when living in California. I will put on my flame suit for this, but there really isn't any difference between the top on the West Coast & the top on the East Coast. I know that you think you ride better, have better horses, have better trainers, but no, not really. What you seem to have is more $$$$ to be spent foolishly. It must be fantastic to be so wealthy that you think that spending over $400 on shoeing for a pony is "normal." Maybe for you it is, but do you think it is ok to be taken advantage of just because you are "rich?" I realize that the wealthy do nothing for themselves, they have "people" who do it for them, whether it is trainers, farriers, grooms, etc. Hey, if they don't mind spending the $$, who am I to say anything. However, the Hunter/Jumper industry is beginning to look like the population of our country, the "haves" and the "have nots!" Where it was possible not that long ago to take a horse up through the levels to the top on a budget, if you had the horse, the talent, and the drive, I'm not so sure that it can easily be done today. When I left California, I purchased a helmet for $68.00. Today that helmet is $650.00. We're only talking about 10 years here, not 50. $700 for a bridle is considered "normal?" I always made up my own horses, showed them at all levels, and was competitive at all levels. My DD did the Jr. Hunters, the Jumpers, and Eq all on the same horse. Of course it was the early 90's where there was nothing considered abnormal about a versatile TB that was talented enough to do it. My DD showed against Lauren Hough & Megan Johnstone a good deal of the time and held her own. I've left the industry, as I am old and don't desire to jump anymore, and really, the industry is for the young. There are many other things to do with a horse, however, and the breed associations and reining, which is now my discipline, welcome people like me. It is a heck of a lot cheaper too, with none of the drama of the H/J industry. At least if you want to spend $700 on a bridle for a reining horse, it is going to have LOTS of sterling silver, which is an investment in itself!
                      Bitter much!!
                      Go Ahead: This is a dare, not permission. Don't Do It!

                      Comment


                      • I love it! Last time I showed in the H/J industry, I do NOT recall any judge coming up to my horse and investigating whether I had a "Jimmy" bridle on her head or the one from Miller's that she was actually wearing! I do however, have a buck stitched headstall when I first got into showing in 1962. The difference is that it has tons of beautiful silver on it and is still worth a good bit of money even though it is long out of style. That is tangible value.

                        Comment


                        • No, I'm NOT bitter. I've said that the H/J industry has long passed me by. I was very successful in that industry due to being able to ride, train, have a good eye for a horse, and be able to devote the time it took to get there. But, I don't like what the industry has become. The drugs, the change of breeds, the over emphasis on how much one pays for saddles, bridles, helmets, boots, hunt coats, breeches, etc. You can find a topic on here every day where the poster seems to care more about the "clothing" part of the business than the "riding." I also don't particularly like the Warmblood as a substitute for the Thoroughbred. It would be like the reining industry dropping the Quarter Horses and going to Morgans! I now spend my disposable income where I can have fun.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by anotherera View Post
                            I will put on my flame suit for this, but there really isn't any difference between the top on the West Coast & the top on the East Coast. I know that you think you ride better, have better horses, have better trainers, but no, not really. What you seem to have is more $$$$ to be spent foolishly. It must be fantastic to be so wealthy that you think that spending over $400 on shoeing for a pony is "normal." Maybe for you it is, but do you think it is ok to be taken advantage of just because you are "rich?" I realize that the wealthy do nothing for themselves, they have "people" who do it for them, whether it is trainers, farriers, grooms, etc. Hey, if they don't mind spending the $$, who am I to say anything. However, the Hunter/Jumper industry is beginning to look like the population of our country, the "haves" and the "have nots!" !
                            I agree to some extent it would be difficult to come up through the levels on a tight budge, can someone point me to where the East Coast is saying the West Coast doesn't ride as well, etc? This is a bitter post.
                            Come to the dark side, we have cookies

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by anotherera View Post
                              At least if you want to spend $700 on a bridle for a reining horse, it is going to have LOTS of sterling silver, which is an investment in itself!
                              At the current market rate, it would have to have 1.5 lbs of silver on it to break even (which is why I'm a silversmith, not a goldsmith), not trying to be argumentative, just pointing out that this is unlikely.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by mvp View Post
                                You don't need to have sympathy for the uber-rich if you don't want to. But *do* have gratitude when they pay what it costs to try and keep horse traders honest. You and I don't have enough money to litigate that, yet we benefit.
                                I was more just having a little financial reality check, I don't entirely disagree with you, since I don't know this case personally. However I think my limited finances mean that I have to be more diligent with my care and PPEs since it's not like I can afford to just go buy another horse if something like this were to happen.

                                Comment


                                • Since this was a BNT to/through BNT sale, if I were the plaintiff's lawyers, I'd want enough discovery to make sure that no commission or finder's fee or gratuity went between the seller and the defendants.

                                  Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
                                  I'd hazard a guess that the radiographs taken during the PPE showed rotation, but the buyer was not informed of it.
                                  "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                  Thread killer Extraordinaire

                                  Comment


                                  • Heritage is misrepresenting the complaint that I read. The complaint specifically did not claim that Heritage was the pony seller. The complaint is based entirely on agency principles. Pony Mother hired Heritage as her agent to find and vet a pony for her daughter. She says that the PPE showed things that should have been made known to her before the purchase BY HER AGENT--and the significance pointed out BY HER AGENT.
                                    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                    Thread killer Extraordinaire

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Pennywell Bay View Post
                                      I agree to some extent it would be difficult to come up through the levels on a tight budge, can someone point me to where the East Coast is saying the West Coast doesn't ride as well, etc? This is a bitter post.
                                      I was in NorCal at the same time as anotherera-- early 1990s.

                                      I think the wadded panties about the West Coast being the poor and country cousin of the East Coast was a factor then. For example, you didn't see the "miniature TB"-looking ponies that the East Coast had quite so often.

                                      At this point, I think the costs of showing and training in a BNT barn is about comparable on either Coast if you are considering a metropolitan area.

                                      It would be fair to say that the top levels of the H/J world really did leave the averagely well-to-do person behind. Many causes of this, but it was just starting to get back in the 1990s. So of course someone who is old enough to have been competitive in the sport before the HITS franchise and the milage rule and the WB invasion and a few real estate bubbles feels priced out, never to return.
                                      The armchair saddler
                                      Politically Pro-Cat

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Button View Post
                                        I was more just having a little financial reality check, I don't entirely disagree with you, since I don't know this case personally. However I think my limited finances mean that I have to be more diligent with my care and PPEs since it's not like I can afford to just go buy another horse if something like this were to happen.
                                        OK, but you put this in terms of "not having sympathy" for anyone involved.

                                        One can have a financial reality check without being unkind to others..... even the rich.

                                        And not "entirely disagreeing with me" because "you don't know the case"? Why back up to a tentative opinion that's tentative because it is ill-informed?

                                        Look, I'm poor, well-educated and philosophically a Marxist. I have every reason to doubt the great characteristics or credibility of rich people. But I think it's out of line to come out with a mean-spirited opinion of rich folks and then to wuss out for reasons of not knowing details that would inform an opinion.

                                        Get an informed opinion before you attack, or don't do it. Even rich people deserve to be treated fairly.

                                        And I don't think one can infer that the people wealthy enough to keep horses at Heritage farm are "less diligent" about their horses' care because they can afford to buy another one. Most high-end show horses get great care.

                                        I'm with you. I can own one horse at a time, if I can do most of the riding and the work myself. So I, too, need to be diligent with management and I have spent too much on PPE's in the past. The differences between me and someone with a lot of money are two: They can afford to replace horses or have more than one in case they break one. But also, they can afford to show enough to hurt a horse (or be tempted to). Part of what keeps my horses sound is my inability to pay for 40 weeks a year of showing.
                                        The armchair saddler
                                        Politically Pro-Cat

                                        Comment


                                        • Stemming from the mention of kids and what are they responsible for knowing. How do these kids not care what's going into their horses? I got my first pony at 11. My parents had PLENTY of money. I never had to concern myself with bills or show fees(showing nearly every weekend). But man was I diligent. I had an accounting journal(since this was before mainstream computers) and I would write down every vaccination and medication my pony got. I would talk to the vet. I bought a medical book that was written for use in pre-vet classes and looked up EVERYTHING. I dunno...maybe I was a minority or just a little bit OCD lol
                                          aka Amanda
                                          "For by the love that guides my pen, I know great horses live again."

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