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That pony lawsuit...OMG you have to see those Heritage Invoices

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  • Originally posted by chunky munky View Post
    VR, if you are going to be totalling up how many jumps and classes the pony endured, perhaps you should be aware that in a division there is no championship "class". It is just points totalled from the division. At some of those shows one of the classes would be a model, and one an under saddle, not too much jumping involved there. Jumps are 2'3, 8 jumps avg per course. 2'3 is not really a gargantuan effort for a pony.They are also showing on manicured footing.
    What would have been a better evaluation would be to attach dates to those shows. There are pretty long breaks between some of those shows.
    The SFHJA show is at Thanksgiving. Pretty sure that the ESP AT show isn't until the end of January. Thats not so bad. Shown in September, then not again until Thanksgiving?? I don't think that is excessive. Pony Finals is early August, then not shown again until September.....not a bad gig for a pony. looks like pony showed 20 times in one year. Less than twice a month.
    The ponies start showing at WEF on Friday afternoon. Smalls are done Sunday morning. Pony gets hacked, etc maybe one lesson until Friday again.It is true that during WEF most horses work pretty hard. As an aside, I am pretty sure that they changed trainers either right before WEF, or during. So the every week showing at WEF may not have been the call of the defendants.
    Ponies kept in good health often have VERY long careers, into their twenties showing is not unusual. Most are a good percentage Welsh, a very hearty breed once used to carry large men down into coal mines. They are not delicate types.
    Ah, but the newer welsh is much more refined and delicate than those working welsh. They have also put TB into them. I prefer the original style. For shows people demand for top of the line height, stride length, pretty and movement, not hardiness.
    The other question that I have is one on the mental stress placed on these ponies and horses that have a heavy competition schedule. Lots of travel, lots of new situations, etc. Some seem to handle it quite well, but none of us REALLY know how our horses mentally deal with this. I was diagnosed with bleeding ulcers last summer. I can tell you first hand that it is miserable and a day to day thing.
    Proud to have two Takaupa Gold line POAs!
    Takaupas Top Gold
    Gifts Black Gold Knight

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    • Originally posted by CBoylen View Post
      That's a very typical show schedule. Quite a few weeks off and 20 shows a year.

      No wonder show horses in the big barns have a 'shelf life' if that's typical.
      The truth is always in the middle.

      Comment


      • Many hunters go for many, many years. Some do and some don't just like in any other area of horse sports. If we want to delve into what the horse "feels and thinks" about it all, I am sure they would tell all of you to get the heck off them and turn them out on 500 acres with a bunch of friends.
        One has to come to grips with what you do with a horse. If you really stop and think about it they are a grazing animal and to do other than allow them to live that way is wrong and cruel.
        Nobody has yet posted what an accepable show schedule is, though everybody seems to have an opinion.
        @Lori, as we are talking here about a small pony I think you will be hard pressed to find much thoroughbred in those.
        www.midatlanticeq.com
        Mid-Atlantic Equitation Festival,Scholarships and College Fair
        November 11-13, 2016

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        • Originally posted by Cannonball View Post
          As a side note I don't think they are guilty of any wrong doing. The lady just had a pony go lame, it happens.
          I reviewed most of what was on Rate My Pro and there was much talk of the xrays "prior" to purchase showing rotation. Does anyone know if these xrays have been released to prove this?

          I think the Owner (buyer) had her trainer vet the pony because looking at those invoices the trainer did a lot for them. Many horse/pony owners at the top levels do rely on their hired staff to manage the horses/pony.

          I am at a place that manages all the full training horses and it's awkward for me. I find I check myself because I am really no longer 100% in charge of the care and management of my horse as I have always been.

          What I find interesting too is the bill of sale says "as is". How I know the buyer is not going after the seller and going after her trainer; but when you have an as is contract in front of a judge usually says a lot in the courts opinion.
          Live in the sunshine.
          Swim in the sea.
          Drink the wild air.

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          • welsh ponies, like most pony breeds, are very likely candidates for metabolic disorders (to no fault of their own), cushings, and laminitis due to hormone fluctuations, feeding, and/or metabolic problems. I had a full welsh in the barn that showed rotation in the front feet and after multiple tests it was due to metabolic deficiencies that developed. At the peak of showing, we did one division twice a month (every other week was taken off). Typical division had 3 over fences classes and one hack

            Comment


            • Two shows a month seems reasonable, depending what they do inbetween. When an owner want to prove a pony and get it qualified, etc. they need to hope the rider is pretty accurate to do much less than that.
              www.midatlanticeq.com
              Mid-Atlantic Equitation Festival,Scholarships and College Fair
              November 11-13, 2016

              Comment


              • Originally posted by chunky munky View Post
                Many hunters go for many, many years. Some do and some don't just like in any other area of horse sports. If we want to delve into what the horse "feels and thinks" about it all, I am sure they would tell all of you to get the heck off them and turn them out on 500 acres with a bunch of friends.
                One has to come to grips with what you do with a horse. If you really stop and think about it they are a grazing animal and to do other than allow them to live that way is wrong and cruel.
                Nobody has yet posted what an accepable show schedule is, though everybody seems to have an opinion.
                @Lori, as we are talking here about a small pony I think you will be hard pressed to find much thoroughbred in those.

                Smalls are one that I am specifically referring to. A pony I once owned, Rain Bonnet (on circuit currently) is a small and has TB in it. The smalls can have TB most definitely. Here is the stud, Sailors Delight in pedigree http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/sailors+delight2

                Horses are domesticated livestock. I am not saying that they should run wild and free, I am just saying that the mental and physical stresses we put on them will take its toll. IMO it is up to the owner of a horse to make final decisions and to know item by item what is happening to their animal. An owner assumes the risk turning everything over to a trainer.
                Proud to have two Takaupa Gold line POAs!
                Takaupas Top Gold
                Gifts Black Gold Knight

                Comment


                • Is Rain Bonnet by sailor's delight? She would most likely be pretty old by now I would think. He was 1/2 TB. To get a small he most likely was bred to a welsh. That would make 1/4 tb. My guess is that a small would most likely be a grand daughter, perhaps ending up about 1/8 tb. I don't think you will find many smalls with much more than that unless they were stunted in some way. I actually knew a 13.3 H all TB, but it was a runt. Genetically it wasn't that size at all.
                  There was also a rather famous 14.3 TB sire around in some pedigrees that genetically was about 16H. People got big surprises when the foals grew into small Jr hunters :-) I feel like i remember a Rain Bonnet. Where is she now?
                  www.midatlanticeq.com
                  Mid-Atlantic Equitation Festival,Scholarships and College Fair
                  November 11-13, 2016

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                  • Originally posted by chunky munky View Post
                    Janeway, see post #120 and a similar response from CBoylen. We think the same.
                    Thanks for pointing me back to yours and CBoylen's posts.

                    Makes me feel better to know I'm not the only one who thinks there was not necessarily anything nefarious about this situation.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by chunky munky View Post
                      There was also a rather famous 14.3 TB sire around in some pedigrees that genetically was about 16H. People got big surprises when the foals grew into small Jr hunters :-) I feel like i remember a Rain Bonnet. Where is she now?
                      Tanrackin Farm's Chantain was a 14.2 TB pony stallion that was very popular with pony breeders during the 1960-1980s. I can still remember the yearly ad in COTH's stallion issue.

                      Comment


                      • I believe Rain Bonnet is still in MO and is leased out.
                        Back when I purchased her as a 3yo, the TB blood was being used a lot on the ponies. Yes, Sailors Delight is her sire. She is a beautiful pony, but very, very refined.
                        I had noticed a lot of the bone on ponies getting more refined back when I was in VA purchasing welsh. The ones that I absolutely adored were thicker build section A, but they would not necessarily make the AA pony hunter.
                        My favorite at Farnley Farm turned out to be close to 30 something and was used as a nanny mare at the time, so she was not for sale. I loved the heavier bone and stout build.

                        When I left VA, I found a POA in Iowa and have stayed with him ever since. The last Welsh that I owned was Bonnie, so I no longer follow the bloodlines in the Welsh. Daisycutter87 is correct on the problems inherent to the breed. I had one of my ponies founder and never could prove a direct cause. Most likely it was a combination of things.

                        This whole thing is just sad to me. I am also concerned about the trickle down effect on our horse community as a whole, which is why I am following the case.
                        Proud to have two Takaupa Gold line POAs!
                        Takaupas Top Gold
                        Gifts Black Gold Knight

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by chunky munky View Post
                          If we want to delve into what the horse "feels and thinks" about it all, I am sure they would tell all of you to get the heck off them and turn them out on 500 acres with a bunch of friends.
                          The ponies on our farm LOVE having "jobs." They have fabulous grass turnout and friends but always come running when you walk to the gate to get them for their daily ride or drive.

                          Domesticated horses are bred to work, and the ones who love their jobs thrive on a consistent work schedule. Same thing as working dogs ~ they are not happy lying around the house; they would rather be out doing a physically and mentally stimulating job.

                          If you think the horses you work with would rather be left alone and never handled then maybe they need a different career.

                          Frankly, I know I would not want the life of an A-show hunter.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by chunky munky View Post
                            Many hunters go for many, many years. Some do and some don't just like in any other area of horse sports. If we want to delve into what the horse "feels and thinks" about it all, I am sure they would tell all of you to get the heck off them and turn them out on 500 acres with a bunch of friends.
                            One has to come to grips with what you do with a horse. If you really stop and think about it they are a grazing animal and to do other than allow them to live that way is wrong and cruel.
                            Nobody has yet posted what an accepable show schedule is, though everybody seems to have an opinion.
                            .
                            True, just as it depends on climate, hauling miles, care of the horse, etc. However, it does come down to what you have to do to keep them jumping jumps at shows 2 times a month pretty much year round now days. A realistic program will have some down time built in, but with pressure from clients to show, trainers needing to eat, etc. how much is too much?

                            Personally, for me, it's too much. No time for injuries to really heal, riders to learn to step up to the next level. So 20 shows a year may be typical, but typical doesn't mean it's the best decision for an individual horse. But it's an old agrument, and as you said, nobody will ever agree.

                            That being said, I didn't particularly see Heritage's invoices as that out of whack for board/training/day fees when broken down by horse.

                            However, $700 for nameplates is steep, as is $2600 for bridles. And if you're already paying for day fees, paying for night security and/or night health checks seem excessive. But if the client isn't engaged enough to to to the tack store themselves to order a nameplate(s) or get a new blanket, than they should pay for the privledge of having somebody else get it for them.

                            Yes, the charges are high, no doubt, but Heritage can charge what the market will bear. Personally, I'd question a bunch of the outlier charges, but I don't have the kind of incomes these people seem to, nor do I have multiple horses showing and in traing, and frankly, I like going to the tack store!

                            I think what just astonished me is the amount of expendible income some people have. I guess more power to them! I can think of more than a few horses I'd own and have pros show for me if I had that kind of money.
                            The truth is always in the middle.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Button View Post

                              SNIP

                              My reality check comment was directed toward the post that implied 12k was not too expensive for a major show, and toward the beginning of this thread, which was about the huge numbers on the bills posted. Most of us can't afford that, and to hear those numbers discussed as normal levels of expenditure is frankly mind blowing for me. I don't have any ill-will toward people who can afford it, but it's also very far outside my frame of reference.
                              Since I was the one who posted about the $12k originally, (although you conveniently left out the rest of my comment about it still being a lot of money) let me just point out, that it was not for a single SHOW, as you imply. It was for a CIRCUIT that goes on for several months. And it was posted in comparison to the calculation that the customer in question spent $30K on pony finals - a single show.

                              My point was that you can show at the top of the game without spending $30K per show, but there is no doubt that showing at the AA level is not for the faint of heart, financially.

                              When you break that $12K down over the entire circuit, it comes to roughly $1000 a week. And that included shipping, training, braiding, entries, the stall, splits for things like a paddock, the trainer's housing, etc. Still a lot of money, in my opinion, but given that there are areas of the country - particularly in the northeast, where I am from - where board and training in a professional program can easily run over $3K a month, frankly I don't think it's particularly outrageous. The trainer certainly didn't put much if any profit in his pocket out of that fee, and only made his money on the commission he got when the horse was sold.

                              Horse showing, at least in the A rated hunter/jumper venues I have experienced, is an expensive luxury pursuit. Heck, horse showing at B & C shows is expensive... keeping horses that don't compete at all is expensive. But there are ways to do it at every level that will allow someone to reduce the costs to some extent. Showing with one of the most successful, high profile professional programs in the country is not one of them.
                              **********
                              We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
                              -PaulaEdwina

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Portia View Post
                                vxf11, can you answer a question about the complaint? I'm a Texas lawyer, but I do international law and have had cases in federal court in NY. But that thing is the weirdest complaint I've ever read. Is it a New York State court requirement to repeat each element of each allegation separately for each defendant, or was that just some bizarre quirk of the plaintiff's lawyer? Honestly, the whole complaint could have been set out just like you did above and been much clearer.
                                Billable hours.
                                The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.

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                                • What struck me about the bills is that many things ARE spelled out (Adequan, Legend, Depo, even Quiessance), which makes the "HS Medication" charges for some pretty high amounts even more suspicious and/or confusing. It seems pretty fair to infer that the "HS Medications" are something other than the specifically itemized and charged items...so...what are they? Legal limits of bute, banamine, even dex do not cost what they are charging...even multiplied by several horses...so...what DOES cost that much? (I honestly don't know.)

                                  I mean, if they are going to the trouble of specifically listing out most of what the horses receive...I'd like to know why they don't continue that same policy for whatever comprises the "HS Medications."

                                  I really have no idea what went on here, and I offer no opinion on what Heritage Farm did or did not do. The invoices are not as clear as they could be, in many respects. In places, it is really hard to tell what is going on with them, the timeframes involved, how many horses a particular charge relates to, etc.

                                  I didn't really find the shoeing charges to be that crazy. The really high one is for the pony that has the alleged rotation. I am not surprised that he had a high farrier bill, and I imagine he was sporting a pretty complex shoe job to deal with his problems. Of course, that's all part of the heart of the lawsuit. But my point is that I don't look at that and get the sense that they were getting gouged on farrier bills...just that perhaps they were paying a lot to shoe a problematic pony appropriately...possibly without understanding much about that pony's problems.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Jumphigh83 View Post
                                    Billable hours.
                                    If you mean that it would take LESS time to draft the complaint as it was actually filed than to plead it less sloppily, you are right. But if you are implying that the complaint as filed was redundant to create more billable hours for the attorney, you are wrong. It takes a lot more time to produce a clear, concise document than it does to produce the type of document that was filed.

                                    I'm hesitant to judge the complaint because I don't know what NY pleading requirements are like, and also because we don't know what kind of time or information constraints the attorney was dealing with. When I read it (when it was first filed), my sense was that it would get the job done and that it was not the worst complaint I had ever read in my life. It's sloppy, for sure, but there are worse things than sloppy when it comes to complaints.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by chunky munky View Post
                                      Unfortunately for the ponies, one of the main goals their owners have is to get them into indoors/Devon. This means the total points for your best 15 shows. Because of overzealous pony moms and their trainers that want their ponies into Devon and indoors some of the ponies show almost every week. The number of points to get a pony into Devon is often double that to get, say a junior hunter in, and triple some divisions.
                                      Which is exactly what Billy Maroney and David O'C were talking about at the USEF town hall the other evening. Do we have to fundamentally change the basic way we do things in our sport(s) to protect our horses?

                                      For example, should hunters change to an X number of scores above Y formula to qualify, like dressage uses for its championships? We can probably all agree that would be the best thing for our horses and ponies, but doing away with points chasing would seriously impact the pocketbooks of many trainers and show managers. Why be on the road for 30 weeks + a year when horses can get qualified in 5-10 shows? So it would be an extremely uphill battle to make that change, but it may come to that.
                                      "I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but why is it that a woman will forgive homicidal behavior in a horse, yet be highly critical of a man for leaving the toilet seat up?" Dave Barry

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by FineAlready View Post
                                        What struck me about the bills is that many things ARE spelled out (Adequan, Legend, Depo, even Quiessance), which makes the "HS Medication" charges for some pretty high amounts even more suspicious and/or confusing. It seems pretty fair to infer that the "HS Medications" are something other than the specifically itemized and charged items...so...what are they? Legal limits of bute, banamine, even dex do not cost what they are charging...even multiplied by several horses...so...what DOES cost that much? (I honestly don't know.)
                                        .
                                        What absolutely blew me away was the first time I heard that Horse Show meds were a line item on a trainer's bill at all. When I was showing, my trainer would pick up what was needed for each horse from the local vet clinic, and we were billed individually by the clinic - itemized down to the last detail. And usually, the bute (or banimine) lived in each individuals tack trunk - or if it was in a med trunk, it was labelled by horse - by the vet clinic and a sharpie marker.

                                        When a friend told me she was billed horse show meds, my first thought was 'that's pretty blatent!' Not that abuses couldn't occur the other way, of course. Just that the trainer would have had to eat the costs!

                                        I have to laugh though, A Saddlebred trainer and I were talking one day (he's been hauling for the big H/J barns) that when he hauls H/Js, all the trainer lug around 1 (or 2) custom made medication trunks. The saddlebred trainers don't have the med trunks, but they do generally have a custom made bar in the stables colors made by the trunk companies! Drugs for the horse, or depressants for the riders? Depends on the disicplines, LOL!
                                        The truth is always in the middle.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by chunky munky View Post
                                          @Lori, as we are talking here about a small pony I think you will be hard pressed to find much thoroughbred in those.
                                          Don't be too sure about that.
                                          "IT'S NOT THE MOUNTAIN WE CONQUER, BUT OURSELVES." SIR EDMUND HILLARYMember of the "Someone Special To Me Serves In The Military" Clique

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