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RF Amber Eyes/Commentary

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  • Hey guys, we've posted a news item about this issue: https://www.chronofhorse.com/article...ping-questions

    Lisa Slade
    Editorial Staff
    The Chronicle Of The Horse

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Lisa Slade View Post
      Hey guys, we've posted a news item about this issue: https://www.chronofhorse.com/article...ping-questions

      Lisa Slade
      Editorial Staff
      The Chronicle Of The Horse
      Thank you for the article and answers to some of the questions posted. But from this it seems it's pretty official to a catch me if you can attitude.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Zanny View Post
        Thank you for the article and answers to some of the questions posted. But from this it seems it's pretty official to a catch me if you can attitude.
        I took the answer about international show records to be more along the lines of "Duh, really?" Not a very satisfying (or reassuring) answer!

        ETA: I know about a thimbleful about H/J and have been reading out of general interest, but it sure seems to me that there's a big dark abyss of rule enforcement here.

        Comment


        • It seems the rider/whatever can enter a class and only if someone pressures the USEF would they look into it.

          “That’s not something that we’ve ever done,” she said. “[But] if the charge was specific to that, if someone said ‘this horse competed at 1.50 meter,’ I’m sure we’d use every method we could to check that.”

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Zanny View Post
            It seems the rider/whatever can enter a class and only if someone pressures the USEF would they look into it.

            “That’s not something that we’ve ever done,” she said. “[But] if the charge was specific to that, if someone said ‘this horse competed at 1.50 meter,’ I’m sure we’d use every method we could to check that.”
            They seem to run things on the honor system, and it would appear that there is no honor among (you can fill in the blank. )
            "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
            Thread killer Extraordinaire

            Comment


            • Thank you COTH for the update and the time you took to further inquire. I am uncertain why people want to focus on the problem and not the solution. It happened; it was a mistake whether you believe it was intentional or not; and Farmer is the one who contacted the USEF to sort it out. I suspect they are sorting it out and all will be fine.

              So how about stopping to beat the dead horse and make a rule proposal or some real move for a change. The USEF is a small organization and they don't have enough money to research every horse and if you want that then horse registration will likely go up by $100.00.

              I would propose they change the registration form to include an affidavit that the new owner attest that they have researched the horse in all databases, including FEI, reviewed ownership papers and passport if they exist, and confirmed the horse is eligible either pregreem, green 1st, green 2nd, etc. (or pony for that matter) and that they have it notarized and confirm it is their signature and if its untruthful they can be subject to a 6 month suspension of horse and rider.

              That USEF would supply a form affidavit that has name, address, contact, all names horse was known by to their knowledge, and a checklist of: I have checked the fei.org database and found no corresponding horse; I have checked the USEA, Dressage, USEF and supply the websites and found no corresponding horse. I have done my due diligence and have retained my records as proof (or attach to registration the print page that says no horse found); and affidavit attestation and signature line and notary.

              For those that need to register quickly or at a show should sign their form indicating they have 10 days to submit the new buyer affidavit and failure to do so would cause a loss of all points earned.

              These are what we call solutions.

              Yes, it would cause extra work on the buyer and that is who should be doing the work. Not the USEF.

              So let's try some solutions and let go of what happened.
              Anthony 'Tony' Soprano Sr.: If you can quote the rules, then you can obey them

              Comment


              • As someone who recently purchased a former 2* horse, and had to explain to Mr. SSR that no, the horse couldn't do the greens even though he had never done a hunter show in his life until last week at Upperville, but was only eligible for the regulars, it seriously peeves me that they entered this mare in the Second Year classes. I do hope that USEF will step up and remove the placings/points that the mare earned in those classes.

                Oh, and how did I know that the horse wasn't eligible? Why, I looked at his competition record, his FEI passport, and READ the USEF rulebook. Really, it wasn't that difficult.
                Cherry Blossom Farm - Show & Field Hunters, Side Saddles

                Comment


                • Just so exasperated by a NGB that just can't seem to govern or keep accurate records. As previously mentioned, at least have the applicant for a registration, ownership, or name change sign a affidavit and accept responsibility for the provided information. These horses are highly valued with some exceeding the prices of homes, autos, classic paintings and the like. Surely, just an "honor system" isn't and hasn't gotten the job done over the years. Hasn't worked to control meds. USEF really has their butts exposed on lots of fronts.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by SidesaddleRider View Post
                    As someone who recently purchased a former 2* horse, and had to explain to Mr. SSR that no, the horse couldn't do the greens even though he had never done a hunter show in his life until last week at Upperville, but was only eligible for the regulars, it seriously peeves me that they entered this mare in the Second Year classes. I do hope that USEF will step up and remove the placings/points that the mare earned in those classes.

                    Oh, and how did I know that the horse wasn't eligible? Why, I looked at his competition record, his FEI passport, and READ the USEF rulebook. Really, it wasn't that difficult.
                    Must have been tied up getting the horse ready to be resold !

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Lisa Slade View Post
                      Hey guys, we've posted a news item about this issue: https://www.chronofhorse.com/article...ping-questions

                      Lisa Slade
                      Editorial Staff
                      The Chronicle Of The Horse
                      Lisa, thank you to you and The Chronicle for continuing to follow this. Did you look up the horse's FEI record in researching the article? I didn't see any mention of her record outside of that with KOC. One of the European competitions in 2011 was at Le Pin, which is going to be the site of the WEGs in 2014, so not exactly little unknown venues.

                      The horse is absolutely lovely, and from everything I've seen and heard is one of those true, natural, freaky good hunters, so I find it even sadder that she's ended up embroiled in such a situation. Whether it was knowingly or unknowingly done isn't the point, the point is that it isn't right, and is unfair to those like SidesaddleRider who do follow the rules.

                      Comment


                      • Jonesy, just wanted to say that I really appreciate your summation of how to move forward with rule changes that could solve this problem. I certainly don't want to "beat a dead horse," but I think a lot of us are concerned that this issue will be swept under the rug.

                        While I am happy to help with future solutions, I also want to make sure that the previous rule infractions are addressed. SidesaddleRider provides the perfect example of someone who did NOT compete her horse in the second year greens because it had similar experience to RF Amber Eyes/Commentary. People who do follow the rules should not be made to feel that following the rules puts them at a disadvantage competitively.

                        It just rubs a lot of people the wrong way to see this mare take home championships in a division she wasn't qualified to compete in (whether it is an accepted practice or not). And that's not touching the issue of having two USEF numbers as well (which does seem on the path to resolution but with the, "Oops! Sorry, we were in a hurry, didn't do our homework, and accidentally registered the mare with a new number and new birthday.").

                        I will give Kelley the benefit of the doubt about updating the registration even though it's not up online. I renewed my USEF membership and it wasn't updated online the last time I checked (this past weekend). I only checked because Chunky Munky said I wasn't a USEF member and I am. Apparently it takes a bit of time to get the Internet database updated.

                        Comment


                        • I think it is hysterical that Glefke is trying to back pedal so fast. He didn't know event horses are registered? Please. What a crock of complete B. S. I am sure that he is well aware that USEF registers horses of all disciplines. Heck, even them thar western horses gots 'emselves sum registrartification numbers. He just got caught re-registering the horse against USEF rules and instead of accepting his public shaming he's blaming K.F. and trying to plead an insane level of ignorance of the role of USEF in horse sport registration. Yes, horses that go to the effing Olympics are not registered, Mr. Glefke, you are right. Duh. Duh. D'oh!
                          If you love me let me go....

                          Comment


                          • Why does it matter if the horse is being re-sold?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by SidesaddleRider View Post
                              As someone who recently purchased a former 2* horse, and had to explain to Mr. SSR that no, the horse couldn't do the greens even though he had never done a hunter show in his life until last week at Upperville, but was only eligible for the regulars, it seriously peeves me that they entered this mare in the Second Year classes. I do hope that USEF will step up and remove the placings/points that the mare earned in those classes.

                              Oh, and how did I know that the horse wasn't eligible? Why, I looked at his competition record, his FEI passport, and READ the USEF rulebook. Really, it wasn't that difficult.
                              Little Miss Non-USEF Member chiming in. Justification for doing so = Post #408.

                              SidesaddleRider, I appreciate your respecting your fellow competitors, the NGB, and at the end of the day, yourself -- by reading and following the rules meant to ensure a fair competition. Though, don't take this the wrong way, it's sort of pathetic that I want to praise you for just doing the right thing, especially when it's so simple.

                              I read this article hoping to hear a quotation from USEF along the lines of this:

                              "We can't comment on this particular horse at this time, but as in any case of disputed eligibility, should we find that points and ribbons were wrongfully awarded, they will be returned, and any disciplinary action taken, if warranted, will be published through our usual channels.

                              Going forward, we plan to discuss specific solutions, including microchipping, consolidation of databases, affidavits and other ideas at our next Relevant Board/Committee meeting, which is on This Date. USEF Committee Members present will include X, Y, and Z, whose contact information can be found on our website Here. USEF members should feel free to let us hear from you in advance of this meeting.

                              Following the meeting, we will communicate our plan of action with a specific timeline for improvements in this area. In the meantime, we remind all competitors that they are required to familiarize themselves with the Rules, available Here, and to follow them at all times when registering and competing at USEF shows. This area, and others recently in the public spotlight, will be given greater scrutiny per the published Rules in the future."

                              I admire anyone who can get their act together, on so many riding, logistical, financial and other levels to spend a week competing fairly at Upperville or Devon. I doubt I could never be that disciplined or organized!

                              But today, I sure am looking forward to happily teaching a little group of plastic-hat and cowboy-booted beginner kids from the county Parks & Rec Department. They're going to be smiling and giggling just trotting once or twice down the long side, with me waddling along at the pony's shoulder. No drama, no databases, no drugs, no invoices, no stewards, no disputed points, just pure fun with children and ponies. Remember?
                              http://www.facebook.com/pages/Easy-K...22998204542511
                              http://www.easykeeperfarm.com

                              I can ride my horses without a sharps container.

                              Comment


                              • Just a point for those that think this is no big deal.

                                Let's say Horse gets a lifetime number with all the correct information.

                                Horse gets sold and reregistered as 1 year younger with a new #.

                                A few years later horse is sold again, new owner again registers with new # and the horse "loses" another year or two of age.

                                Same horse sold again, but is now listed as maybe 12 or 13 on his USET registration, actual breed registration and bloodlines are "lost",and has maybe even been sold a few times with latest number unchanged so current owner is unaware of the horses past. It is really is 15 or 16 and probably worth significantly less and may need more maintenance sooner than planned.

                                I can see this as an advantage with OTTBs - check the tattoo and you can find out exactly who the horse is and their true age. The problem is that, unless you know the USET names it was registered with, the show record could be lost.


                                Personally, IF this ever became and issue for me (either USET registration or buying a horse with USET registration already) I would have the horse microchipped to register and check for one if purchasing.


                                Christa

                                Comment


                                • Just a bit more information about Commentary. She IS a registered German Sport Horse, which is a relatively new (2003) German registry created by the merger of some regional ones(Berlin-Brandenburg, Saxony, Saxony-Anhalt, and Thuringia). The identifying initials are DSP. http://deutsches-sportpferd.pferderassen.net/ The article I found used a Z in a place which I thought meant Zangersheide.. Her breeder was Gunter Hofmann, Großkochberg, Germany, if I'm understanding German correctly, which is questionable. Liberty Son, her sire, stood in Thuringen for some time. If you search Amber Eyes de Cheverny, her registered name, the first two things that appear are youtube videos of her jumping M level in 2011. ( I was wrong about this. Belgium doesn't have M level for jumpers; I've been struggling with the Belgian rules in French for HOURS. The Youtube videos are of her stadium rounds at events. ) She seems to have been with a Belgian rider at that time.
                                  Here's her official Belgian record:
                                  http://www.equibel.be/prg/search/?do...RID%3A11&hl=nl

                                  Since it's so easy to find out all you need to know about a horse's previous competition career with the breed registry name, it's no wonder that importers who want to compete in 1st year green and sell to juniors find it useful to lose all the breeding and registry and name information. Probably very few imported horses are actually eligible Green at any level.
                                  Last edited by vineyridge; Jun. 11, 2013, 10:25 PM. Reason: Correct errors
                                  "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                  Thread killer Extraordinaire

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Alter_nativ3 View Post
                                    Why does it matter if the horse is being re-sold?
                                    What are the odds that she will lose the name Commentary and be registered yet again as a WB with breeding unknown?
                                    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                    Thread killer Extraordinaire

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by alittlegray View Post
                                      I think it is hysterical that Glefke is trying to back pedal so fast. He didn't know event horses are registered? Please. What a crock of complete B. S. I am sure that he is well aware that USEF registers horses of all disciplines. Heck, even them thar western horses gots 'emselves sum registrartification numbers. He just got caught re-registering the horse against USEF rules and instead of accepting his public shaming he's blaming K.F. and trying to plead an insane level of ignorance of the role of USEF in horse sport registration. Yes, horses that go to the effing Olympics are not registered, Mr. Glefke, you are right. Duh. Duh. D'oh!
                                      The horse also competed at WEF earlier this year in the jumpers at heights that would make it ineligible for 2nd Year Green.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by PonyPenny View Post
                                        The horse also competed at WEF earlier this year in the jumpers at heights that would make it ineligible for 2nd Year Green.
                                        This was already addressed earlier in this thread. If the horse is eligible for the Greens as of December 1st, it is eligible for the entire horse show year, regardless of what height it jumps at a show during the year.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by MHM View Post
                                          This was already addressed earlier in this thread. If the horse is eligible for the Greens as of December 1st, it is eligible for the entire horse show year, regardless of what height it jumps at a show during the year.

                                          Agree. But if she showed at WEF she quite OBVIOUSLY had a USEF number and even if a hunter owner/pro is completely ignorant about eventer rules/registration-- I find it hard to believe that same person wouldn't know that JUMPERS (which show at the same shows as hunters and often do cross back/forth) have USEF registrations when they show at rated USEF shows?!
                                          ~Veronica
                                          "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                                          http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

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