• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

RF Amber Eyes/Commentary

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Isn't there something about it being bad luck to change a horse's name?

    Kidding aside, I don't care that they changed her name. Their horse. Their choice. It's the changing of the factual data at the same time that bothers me.
    The Evil Chem Prof

    Comment


    • Originally posted by PonyPenny View Post
      Curiosity got the best of me, so I looked up RF Amber Eyes show record on USEF. It shows the mare did several jumper classes at WEF this year up to 1.35 meters. Wouldn't that alone make her ineligible for 2nd Year Green classes regardless of her eventing career?
      No. A horse is eligible for the respective Green division for the entire horse show year, regardless of the height it shows over that year. Some horses might do the Greens and the High Performance at the same show. The higher jumps don't make the horse ineligible for the Greens if it is otherwise eligible.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by PonyPenny View Post
        Curiosity got the best of me, so I looked up RF Amber Eyes show record on USEF. It shows the mare did several jumper classes at WEF this year up to 1.35 meters. Wouldn't that alone make her ineligible for 2nd Year Green classes regardless of her eventing career?
        No because the rule is 3'6" or higher. So, once you've broken a horse's green status by jumping 3'6" it doesn't matter how much higher you jump.

        Once upon a time, in a galaxy far far away, jumping in combined training/eventing didn't count towards green status, but we're talking 80's.
        The Evil Chem Prof

        Comment


        • Originally posted by magicteetango View Post

          You know one thing I never understood? Who buys these horses where they just pop up out of nowhere one day and go like gang busters with no history? You really don't care about their existence before this sale barn? Odd odd odd. But people continue to do it which continues to make this a common practice. Until that stops I doubt this issue will ever be resolved.
          It's been going on since the 80's or earlier. It was more of the jumpers. Buying an experienced horse and showing in the lower jumper classes and taking all the money. I guess hunter derbies have made it worth it for hunters.

          Comment


          • I don't think its so much the "clerical error" that is rousing people up--I honestly don't care what class the horse competes in or if they change her name (although I think she should keep the same USEF number). Its more the total apathy by the owners to follow the rules and how easily they justify breaking them. You know, it may be a really stupid rule that everyone agrees should be changed. And honestly, it really doesn't hurt anyone that it was broken. But if they so easily disregard these rules, who is to say they won't justify a little Dex (or Mag) to take the edge off their hunter? And considering that they are at the top of their sport, and are thus role models for everyone else, the fact that they are OK with cheating is even more concerning.

            Isn't this part of the "cultural change" that was talked about in the last town hall meeting? Basically getting people to follow the rules even if they could break them without getting caught, because it is the right thing to do?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by skydy View Post
              So, let's assume for the sake of argument, that it's inadvertent cheating (incompetence, clerical error, whatever). It's NOT all about them and their potential punishment. This error does affect other people.

              My sympathies lie with competitors who showed that day and placed behind the ineligible horse. Their time, money, and experience on that day can't be replaced.
              Actually, they can. It's not that serious or uncommon a mistake. If the horse is later found to be ineligible, points just get redistributed. Not difficult.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Eventer13 View Post

                Isn't this part of the "cultural change" that was talked about in the last town hall meeting? Basically getting people to follow the rules even if they could break them without getting caught, because it is the right thing to do?
                Yes! Isn't it special?
                Now that "collapse" has been mentioned publicly, everyone in H.J. land is on the honor system to report the collapse of their horse. Well, Christ on a raft!
                Don't you know,everyone will now be making sure the clerical details and eligibility are in order as well?
                The USEA has been quite a bit more pro-active than USEF has, in the horses dropping dead issue, and during the webcast you refer to , DOC seemed to me to say, "hey guys it's your division, you can make the rules".
                If the USHJA decides to clean up a bit, won't that be nice? (having watched the webcast, I'm not holding my breath).

                Until then, I wouldn't expect any uproar about eligibility rules.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by CBoylen View Post
                  Actually, they can. It's not that serious or uncommon a mistake. If the horse is later found to be ineligible, points just get redistributed. Not difficult.
                  I said "time , money and experience on that day" I was not speaking of points. For some people it's not all about points, and those are the people with whom I sympathize.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by skydy View Post
                    I said "time , money and experience on that day" I was not speaking of points. For some people it's not all about points, and those are the people with whom I sympathize.
                    I believe the prize money gets redistributed in such a case. The exhibitors spent the same amount of time whether they pinned first or last, and the experience of going around the ring was the same. Only the jog would have been different with one less horse in the class.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by MHM View Post
                      I believe the prize money gets redistributed in such a case. The exhibitors spent the same amount of time whether they pinned first or last, and the experience of going around the ring was the same. Only the jog would have been different with one less horse in the class.
                      I wasn't commenting so much on the prize money as I was on the entry fees, stabling, shipping etc.. paid by people who had, perhaps, brought their excellent homebred to show. I know they are few and far between, but they do exist. For some people , it would matter.

                      Isn't that why there are rules? A level playing field?

                      "The experience of going around the ring" would not necessarily be the same if you felt that your horse had the best trip of his life and came in second, only to find out later that you were beaten by an ineligible horse.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by skydy View Post
                        I wasn't commenting so much on the prize money as I was on the entry fees, stabling, shipping etc.. paid by people who had, perhaps, brought their excellent homebred to show. I know they are few and far between, but they do exist. For some people , it would matter.
                        Those exhibitors still spent the same amount on entries, stabling, shipping, etc. whether or not there was a horse in the class who turned out to be ineligible. They had the same experience in the ring, they spent the same amount of time. Once the points and prize money get redistributed, life goes on.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by MHM View Post
                          Those exhibitors still spent the same amount on entries, stabling, shipping, etc. whether or not there was a horse in the class who turned out to be ineligible. They had the same experience in the ring, they spent the same amount of time. Once the points and prize money get redistributed, life goes on.
                          Yes life does go on. That is no excuse for professionals being incompetent at the expense of others. It is unprofessional and poor sportsmanship.

                          Comment


                          • I am still trying to recover from the "Christ on a raft" comment. I am also (more or less) grading lab reports online and I started to highlight that comment as if I was still in Turnitin. Back to lab reports...
                            The Evil Chem Prof

                            Comment


                            • For those that mentioned Kelley Farmer's "unblemished reputation": in 2007 she was suspended for 5 months and fined $5,000 for showing a horse on reserpine.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Martha Drum View Post
                                Thank you for the clarification.

                                I would like to gently weigh in, as a non-USEF member who is a beginner-to-2'6 riding instructor. About ten years ago I had a student place well in a Special Hunter Classic at Head of the Bay, so I've set foot at an AA show, but frankly I'm as nobody as it gets.

                                I do not feel I have any standing to complain about USEF fees, who the members of various committees are, where they hold their annual meeting, or other internal issues of an organization to which I do not belong.

                                However, I do make my living in the horse business.

                                Like I said, I'm a nobody. NBC isn't covering whether little Tina finally learns her diagonals this week. No one wants to livestream the first time a lesson student actually gets the bridle on all by himself. Alas, the Chronicle doesn't have a monthly questionnaire for those who have just learned to canter out of a tiny crossrail line.

                                But the whole world is watching when a horse breaks down in a major stakes race. Joe Q Public, in areas where there are Tennessee Walkers, has the soring issue on his radar. There is increasingly a non-horsey audience aware of rotational falls in eventing, and thanks to a goofy lawsuit, everyone who follows PETA has learned about something called rollkur. And while hunter riders may think our discipline doesn't deserve to be lumped in with those others, it's already happened. When an issue involving horses and children is on the front page of the New York Times, that's a very, very bright spotlight.

                                The reason I care whether or not the USEF follows its own rules (and I am perfectly content to assume ignorance/haphazard carelessness regarding the motive for re-recording/age change of this horse, until proven otherwise) is this: When the non-horsey Joe Schmoe does a google search, he's going to find that USEF is the national federation for equestrian sports in this country. And if USEF can't get its act together, on this tiny detail, or in other really big hot button areas, and enforce its own rules, that looks really bad.

                                I'm not hysterically suggesting that the general public cares a woodchuck's patootie about this particular situation; I'm sure it doesn't. But the principle is the thing.

                                If we, the equestrian community, can't police ourselves on something as small as a name/age change, how can we be trusted (in the non-horsey public's mind) to police ourselves on the big things? The answer is that the non-horsey public/legislators/special interest groups will do it for us. And they are not going to discern a difference between a BNT and myself when they impose weird restrictions or impossible standards of care.

                                Each of us working in the horse business is just one upload of a fatal or serious incident away, seen by just one state or national legislator, with just one wealthy individual's support, filing proposed legislation regulating horse activities that would be really stupid, kneejerk, ignorant, suck for all of us, but might just get passed because we didn't solve the problem first.

                                Respectfully submitted from The World of Rubber Boots and Little Up-Down Riders.

                                And, y'all are welcome to call me Martha
                                For those who are stuck on the "what is the big deal??!!" argument, I suggest you read this excellent post.

                                In a nutshell, if we don't take responsibility and police ourselves, on the big things and the small, then don't be surprised when someone else starts to do the policing to the detriment of us all.
                                "Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?" Sun Tzu, The Art of War
                                Rainy
                                Stash

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by MHM View Post
                                  Those exhibitors still spent the same amount on entries, stabling, shipping, etc. whether or not there was a horse in the class who turned out to be ineligible. They had the same experience in the ring, they spent the same amount of time. Once the points and prize money get redistributed, life goes on.
                                  Except they might have missed out on win or championship pictures, which for me is the best part!
                                  Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.
                                  Serious Leigh: it sounds like her drama llama should be an old schoolmaster by now.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by sunshinestate View Post
                                    Then you breeders are pissed because they didn't record the sire and dam. Who cares? It is not my business to pass on your breeding name.
                                    Then don't be upset when breeders can not continue to breed the kind of horses that you want since they won't have good data on past matches to go by.
                                    Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.
                                    Serious Leigh: it sounds like her drama llama should be an old schoolmaster by now.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by MistyPony View Post
                                      I don't really have a problem with someone changing a horse's name (to each his own), but I really wish USEF would leave "aliases" on the online database of show records. At the very least it would be helpful for past owners who like to follow the careers of their old horses and would be interested in offering a retirement home somewhere down the line!
                                      Absolutely! It would make tracking horses SOOOO much easier. But that makes too much sense.
                                      Laurie

                                      Comment


                                      • By far the most disturbing part of this thread is the number of people who think its just no big deal to cheat and everyone should just get over it. That's the problem in the h/j industry in a nutshell.

                                        In the last Chronicle article Larry blamed the bad registration on the following:
                                        1. Kelley
                                        2. Gosh, we're so busy!
                                        3. Gosh, we're in a rush!
                                        4. They register eventers? Really?
                                        You just bought a horse from a top international competitor. You really think she didn't get around to registering the horse? I mean she can't possibly be as busy as you, since at the time she was competing internationally, running a big training/coaching business, buying and selling horses, sitting on committees...

                                        And then, because things weren't bad enough, Larry blatantly admits that he (and other trainers) regularly ignore horses' international experience. In clear violation of the rules, and show them green when they're not eligible.

                                        But the thing that's keeping the thread going is the whole crowd that thinks it's no big deal to cheat. That's the point. Cheating's bad. For those of you getting ridiculously defensive, thAts why the h/j world has some big problems. People just don't get that cheating's bad.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by RockinHorse View Post
                                          Then don't be upset when breeders can not continue to breed the kind of horses that you want since they won't have good data on past matches to go by.
                                          Exactly. And it IS your job, assuming you are a professional, to present to your horse-hunting clients the very BEST quality horses available. How on earth do you do that without a good, if not excellent, knowledge of conformation and pedigree and the individual background and history of each horse?

                                          I do support our breeders wanting to be able to track their horses. This helps our American breeders develop BETTER horses. But I also wish to preserve competitors' right to change their horses' names if they see fit. USEF came up with an admirable solution which should have satisfied both requirements.

                                          The fact that the system is broken is NOT the fault of the Federation, it's the fault of those who flagrantly (or idiotically, take your pick) choose to violate the rules.

                                          The "keep the owners stupid" mentality really is approaching critical mass. Plenty of people see that even if you don't.

                                          Been thinking a lot over the weekend about what it would take to change this mentality, and really I think what it boils down to is that trainers have to start educating students about the importance of pedigree and conformation as they affect performance at a VERY young age. I was fortunate enough to be the beneficiary of such training early on and I value it highly. I certainly wish others in the sport could be so fortunate. As one European breeder pointed out, we will always be less successful than Europe internationally until we come to grips with this situation. Until then, we really *are*, as equestrians, no better than the Saudis - perennial also-rans b/c all we have is money to throw at a problem, we don't have the knowledge, skills, background, backbone, or intellectual capacity to actually solve it.
                                          "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X