• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

USEF Hasn't Changed...

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Original Poster

    #41
    Originally posted by supershorty628 View Post
    You know, I wonder if everyone stops calling attention to her bizarre behavior, if maybe she'll go away...
    That would be nice wouldn't it? Unfortunately, it seems unlikely.

    Comment


    • #42
      also- David's wife Kara is at Old salem this week instead of him, I thought this was a no-no?
      When the boogeyman goes to sleep, he checks the closet for George Morris. -mpsbarnmanager

      Comment


      • #43
        I doubt if the reputation of the people would have much effect. IIRC at the Wellington Town Hall meeting, Chris Kappler came out in favor of something like the FEI Rules. He's a pretty darned big name.

        I have a gut feeling that what is going to end up happening is that the USEF will start a whole new association just for the jumper (and FEI supervised) people. That way, the hunters and most ponies and all of the other non-FEI disciplines will be out of the spotlight and can continue to drug to their trainers' hearts' content. The only reason the USEF is addressing this at all is the NYTimes story and probably some FEI pressure.

        As to welfare of the horse, unless a horse person is independently supported by other money, when it's a choice between horse welfare and personal welfare, the horse will always lose.
        Originally posted by findeight View Post
        OMG, cant we stay on this particular topic without derailing it into yet another train wreck with this woman?

        On the topic, not surprised it's business as usual. We need serious rule changes but those need to be proposed by well known persons with some standing or they just get swept away as anything inconvenient that most of the "little "people" come up with.

        Of course those well known persons would suffer an unfortunate backlash for upsetting the proverbial apple cart from those insiders who want to continue manipulating the system to keep the status quo as it always has been to serve their needs.

        Bottom line is the welfare of the horse is the absolute last thing that seems to have any importance at all and we don't seem to be able to do anything about it. Horses are just collateral damage in the war to win.
        "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
        Thread killer Extraordinaire

        Comment


        • #44
          Show results say he did two open 3'6 classes (2/25 in one) and then was champion in the older small juniors. The daughter was riding the whole time.

          What surprises me is that they're addressing it a year later. Looks like this was the only show the horse did in the junior hunters... but what if these unfairly earned points, as well as any others earned using drugs, had gotten him to indoors or national year end awards, and they had sold him for substantial $$$ after that? Obviously not what happened here but seriously... I get that the process can be long but surely there is a way to make it be shorter than a whole year.

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #45
            The points, prizes.. etc earned at the show, where the horse tests positive, must be forfeited.
            It is a very long process and I don't understand it either. That is why I was looking to see if the horse had been sold. I don't know if there is any resource for the purchaser of a horse to find if it has tested positive but has not yet been suspended. Perhaps one of our Judge, Steward, (or other USEF official) members of COTH can enlighten us?

            Comment


            • #46
              Originally posted by iEquitate View Post
              Show results say he did two open 3'6 classes (2/25 in one) and then was champion in the older small juniors. The daughter was riding the whole time.

              What surprises me is that they're addressing it a year later. Looks like this was the only show the horse did in the junior hunters... but what if these unfairly earned points, as well as any others earned using drugs, had gotten him to indoors or national year end awards, and they had sold him for substantial $$$ after that? Obviously not what happened here but seriously... I get that the process can be long but surely there is a way to make it be shorter than a whole year.
              Do you really think the USEF wanted this publicity to come out? Dead horse after it drug tested positive at a USEF sanctioned competition two weeks before Devon of last year? Does anyone know how it died, where, when or if the USEF who obviously has it listed as deceased opened up an investigation into the matter?
              Elizabeth Mandarino
              www.amberhillponies.com
              cell 908.397.0977

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by iEquitate View Post
                I get that the process can be long but surely there is a way to make it be shorter than a whole year.
                The USEF usually suspends a person at the same time of year as the infraction. So if the horse tested positive at Old Salem last year, the suspension starting around Old Salem this year is standard operating procedure. Typically the suspension is announced shortly before it goes into effect.


                I don't know what happened with this horse, but the trainer in question has been in the horse business for more than thirty years, with many very nice horses showing successfully at the best shows, no doubt getting tested as much as anyone else. This is the first time I can EVER recall seeing his name on the suspension list, so I am inclined to think it could have been a simple mistake in withdrawal times, especially if the horse came from a different owner and barn so his daughter could show it one time.


                There are certainly people who pop up on the suspension list on a regular basis. That is not the case here.

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by MHM View Post
                  The USEF usually suspends a person at the same time of year as the infraction. So if the horse tested positive at Old Salem last year, the suspension starting around Old Salem this year is standard operating procedure. Typically the suspension is announced shortly before it goes into effect.


                  I don't know what happened with this horse, but the trainer in question has been in the horse business for more than thirty years, with many very nice horses showing successfully at the best shows, no doubt getting tested as much as anyone else. This is the first time I can EVER recall seeing his name on the suspension list, so I am inclined to think it could have been a simple mistake in withdrawal times, especially if the horse came from a different owner and barn so his daughter could show it one time.


                  There are certainly people who pop up on the suspension list on a regular basis. That is not the case here.
                  Sedavet is actually a very effective medication used during procedures as it does not leave the horse wobbly and they "snap out of it" quickly. I've seen it prescribed for clipping - now that is not, of course, an allowed use but it has a short clearance time. (The obvious answer here, is to train your horse to accept clipping, but this is Planet Earth, not Utopia. That takes time *and* knowledge in how to habituate the horse to the clippers. But I digress.) Have any of you seen a horse under the influence of Sedavet? I have. You're not riding that horse. But said horse can still have metabolites in its blood hours after it is out of the influence of the drug.

                  MHO, this was a screw-up on the part of Spadone or Raposa. Used Sedavet for some purpose (betcha it was clipping), assumed it would "clear" within the normal timeframe (bad, bad idea, mammals do not clear substances within definite timeframes) and got caught. This is not dropping a horse at the end of a needle. Now, IMHO, if you have a horse that needs chemical restriction for every danged procedure, you have a training problem and probably need better help. But I'm not damning Raposa for this.
                  "Horsemanship is not merely a matter of bodily skills, but is based on scholarship and, therefore, is a matter of the mind and intellect." Charles de Kunffy

                  http://www.equiimages.com

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    again Ms Manderino

                    Originally posted by amberhill View Post
                    Walt Bogdanich ,The New York Times,Walt Bogdanich, The United States Equestrian Federation, The United States Hunter Jumper Association and the United States Olympic Committee Turning a Blind Eye on Drugging at USEF Sanctioned Shows

                    http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/Walt-B...eratio-1049949
                    The report makes clear sickening reports of all the inhumane practices being done by every BNT at the shows. But for Christ Sake please stop saying you are not responsible for killing that pony! [edit] If you want to reform the sport, start with yourself and file protests concerning all the people you mention in the rip off report. I agree reform needs to happen. I also believe it starts with telling the truth! The whole truth in this case would at least help... If you kill an animal at a USEF event it should be investigated and person responsible for said death should be held responsible for it. You can kill a horse and not get fined, set down or investigated, but a positive test for a sedative gets you 2 months and $$$$ for the USEF. People say shame on the penalty not being longer. I mean really? .12cc of a sedative I guarantee is a lot better for the horse than 30+cc of Magnesium! The federation never takes the horses welfare into account when they make the rules or assign their penalties. They don't consider the animal or the USEF members. If you send a medication or supplement to the USEF and ask them to test it before administering it to an animal. They throw it away and will not respond or acknowledge the request. They are only focused on catching people and depositing the penalty $$$. If an administrative penalty is offered for an action it is accompanied with a nice little letter telling you if you don't except the offer bc the charge is unjust be prepared for a lot of expense and a greater penalty. Really they are equally responsible for the drugging problems in the sport.
                    [edit]
                    Last edited by Moderator 1; May. 12, 2013, 09:05 PM.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #50
                      Hermit,
                      As a favor to so many of us who have put Amberhill on "Ignore", please don't quote.. Engaging, at this point, is akin to validation, and believe me you are pi$$ing in the wind if you think that you can get any simple, intelligent point, across to this person.

                      We can have a discussion about the issue without going off the rails with this person. If you can't help but engage, please do it by PM so we can have a civilized discussion, minus the crazy train.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #51
                        MHM,
                        Is there any method by which a potential buyer of a horse can find out if it has tested positive for prohibited drugs BEFORE the suspension is announced a year later?

                        If not , that is a problem that should be addressed.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Back in the day, when its initials were AHSA, it was all about the shows and related subtitles. As USEF, they have to carry a much bigger umbrella. The panels are frequently made up of friends of the accused. Hence, you get different sentences or lenient sentences because so and so doesn't believe their friend really meant to drug their horse, etc.
                          I feel strongly (& its been said before) that punishments should be streamlined. Simply remove the drugged horses points for the year and prohibit them from competing in their division for the balance of that year. Owners will be mad and probably switch barns. (Which will inhibit trainers income-punishment of a sort) and owners will be forced to be more pro-active when determining who should train their horse and/or child. Any junior horse (ie) can finish the year in children's or modified and am-owners could finish in adults. 1st or 2nd year horses would be stuck with schooling divisions. There is no totally fair way to deal with this issue but if a trainer loses several clients because their horses were drugged and 'lost' their year, other trainers ( not wanting to lose clients themselves) might be slower to resort to chemical intervention and go back to training properly and making sure their clients are on mounts that don't need drugs to make them rideable.

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Hermit, Are you saying New Bolton falsified a necropsy and toxicology report and questioning their stated cause of death and that the police investigation that was closed because no wrongdoing was found is faulty. Let's stick to the topic.

                            I have nothing but good things to say about the Raposa's and feel they were caught in the middle.

                            I leased an equitation horse from Emma from Emil Spadone that he insisted be kept at another trainer's barn. I showed up for a lesson during a school break unexpectedly and the horse spooked, spun, and reared, something the horse never exhibited before. The next day I made sure to show up unexpectedly and the same thing happened. I demanded the horse be sent to me to see if it could work in my program and low and behold the horse was unrideable and dangerous. I returned the horse. I drove two hours to watch this horse then compete with an experienced junior at 3'6" and it squatted over the jumps hardly making it over. [edit] Not worth my daughter's life and the horse could barely do 3'6" with an experienced junior and Emma was just doing the 3' medals. No refund. No replacement. A "friend" called and told me the horse was donated to Texas A&M. Owner and Emil kept my money and then the owner received a tax deduction. The "friend" called me a month later and heard the horse had landed a Texas A&M student in the hospital with a concussion. I had no reason to not believe her but its second hand but the horse has vanished from the USEF website. His name was Carrera.

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: elizmand@aol.com
                            To: mscott@usef.org; espadone@aol.com; joe@magnajm.com
                            Sent: Tue, Jun 1, 2010 12:24 pm
                            Subject: Carrera USEF Membership # 5045087

                            Melissa,

                            Please note the lease on the above horse has been terminated and is to be removed from Amber Hill Farm's (#5035137) roster. The horse is to be shown at HITs Saugerties this coming weekend under a different trainer and rider and Amber Hill no longer has responsibility for any liability that may arise.

                            Thank you so much for your immediate attention to this matter.

                            Regards,
                            Elizabeth Mandarino
                            Last edited by Moderator 1; May. 12, 2013, 09:08 PM.
                            Elizabeth Mandarino
                            www.amberhillponies.com
                            cell 908.397.0977

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by jonesy View Post
                              You might not like the messenger, but the message is right.

                              I think the author, inferred to be Elizabeth Mandarino, makes things overly complicated by naming NY Times journalist, Walter Bogdanich in the title of her complaint while she's also raking the USEF over the coals.

                              The complaints about the USEF turning a blind eye to drugging problems aren't just Mandarino's.
                              The armchair saddler
                              Politically Pro-Cat

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by SueL View Post
                                MHO, this was a screw-up on the part of Spadone or Raposa. Used Sedavet for some purpose (betcha it was clipping), assumed it would "clear" within the normal timeframe (bad, bad idea, mammals do not clear substances within definite timeframes) and got caught. This is not dropping a horse at the end of a needle. Now, IMHO, if you have a horse that needs chemical restriction for every danged procedure, you have a training problem and probably need better help. But I'm not damning Raposa for this.
                                That could be.....clipping done with drugs too close to the show, the ol "feedbucket mix up" when stacking NSAIDs was still legal, the enormous amount of cocaine found on money and showing up on a horse's blood test.

                                All of these things can happen, I suppose. But the BNTs in this industry have created the bed they are now lying in. Their job is to 1) not cheat or 2) run big, complicated businesses so that F-Ups don't happen. Were cheating not a problem, there wouldn't be so much scrutiny.
                                The armchair saddler
                                Politically Pro-Cat

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  mvp, I'm not disagreeing with you. But... I've seen Sedavet used in real life. It's a quick-acting med and I can't imagine how you would concoct a dose that would render a horse rideable for a couple of hours. Maybe I'm underestimating the abilities of BNTs. I don't buy the mixed up feed tubs for a minute either. Nor the cocaine theory. I *can* think that it is possible to screw up on a withdrawal time. But I don't use meds for mundane procedures like a quick body clip, so I'm no expert on that score. But do know people that do.
                                  "Horsemanship is not merely a matter of bodily skills, but is based on scholarship and, therefore, is a matter of the mind and intellect." Charles de Kunffy

                                  http://www.equiimages.com

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by mvp View Post
                                    That could be.....clipping done with drugs too close to the show, the ol "feedbucket mix up" when stacking NSAIDs was still legal, the enormous amount of cocaine found on money and showing up on a horse's blood test.

                                    All of these things can happen, I suppose. But the BNTs in this industry have created the bed they are now lying in. Their job is to 1) not cheat or 2) run big, complicated businesses so that F-Ups don't happen. Were cheating not a problem, there wouldn't be so much scrutiny.

                                    I agree. How long are we going to make excuses for people we admire or like or don't think could ever possibly drug a horse? We can't. Whether it is a mistake or not, we can't truly know. It's time for USEF to streamline punishments. Everyone receives the same no matter the circumstances. If anything, it'll teach them to make better choices.

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Going to disagree a little here about everybody getting the same punishment regardless of past record. I don't necessarily think first offenders with a substance having legit vet uses that could have been given several days earlier need the same length of suspension and fine as a repeat offender administering a human anti psychotic or the guaranteed not to test drug du jour with no other purpose then to calm. The first is sloppy, bad management or carelessness for sure but the second is well thought out done with full knowledge and premeditation for the sole purpose of cheating. IMO there can be some flexibility in differentiating between the two offenses.

                                      I do think even the first time violation for whatever reason, mistake or not, warrants more then is now given as well as a more timely-and less convenient-suspension. Horse and owner should be out too, not just the trainer or person signing the entry blank.

                                      Repeat offenders, horse, trainer and owner ought to be out a good long time as should those who had full knowledge their actions constitute cheating done for the sole purpose of cheating.

                                      When I mentioned needing well known names earlier? We need them to actually propose a rule change and, preferably, sit on a committee that decides whether they go any further or not-meaning an insider for want of a better term. To few decide too much with too much self interest and cronyism as it stands.
                                      When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                                      The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by skydy View Post
                                        MHM,
                                        Is there any method by which a potential buyer of a horse can find out if it has tested positive for prohibited drugs BEFORE the suspension is announced a year later?
                                        If there is such a method, I am not familiar with it.

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Bit off the topic here but feel the need to weigh in. I have followed the USEF's approach to clearly unethical behavior from near and far for years. I have enjoyed showing in the Adults and 3'3" A/Os. But, as my trusted campaigners wind down their careers it has gotten to the point I am afraid to buy a horse. The laughable penalities of the USEF make doping so commonplace I have had "reputable" AA trainers completely blase' tell me and my trainer "this one ONLY gets Dex to go to the ring". It is sickening and I am done. I have no desire to needle my A/O horse to get to the ring with a little Dex or a little etomodate or a lot of Mag or whatever they come up with next that I can't pronounce or test for on a PPE.
                                          I'm taking the cash I've been squirreling away to blow on my next hunter and putting it under my pillow for a rainy day. I holding up no hope the USEF is going to clean up its act anytime soon. In the meantime, I might try competitive trail riding. Now that is saying a lot from a 30 year in the making avowed hunter princess.

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X