• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.



Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Clubfoot/Back at the knee in 3 yr old WB - WWYD

  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Clubfoot/Back at the knee in 3 yr old WB - WWYD

    I am a new member and this is my first post. I'm in a little bit of a quandry and would like to get your expert opinion.

    Two months ago I purchased a three old WB gelding. He was located out of town and my vet could not refer me to a local vet for a ppe so I found a vet on the aaep.org website.

    She assured me that although she knew of the seller that she did not work for them and felt comfortable doing a ppe.

    I explained to the vet that I was looking for a part-time AO/AA hunter/all-arounder. She told me that she competed in high-level eventing and knew the physical requirements for a jumping horse. I explained that I was looking for my "forever" horse and although I wouldn't be campaigning full-time I wanted something that would be sound.

    When I first saw the horse I noticed that he had upright pasterns and what looked like a clubfoot (LF). When I expressed my concern she said that I was looking at "baby feet" and that they would mature to look more "normal".

    We took xrays and she was unconcerned about the foot and said that because he is landing flat that as long as he's trimmed correctly it shouldn't be a problem. She said he was perfect for what I wanted to do and should be able to hold up to jumping 3'3"-3'6".

    When I got him home the first words out of my farrier's mouth was "he's back at the knee", along with the club, then my normal vet looked at him and his xrays and said he definitely has a clubfoot. They both agreed that he is landing flat and there is no uneven wear on his unshod hooves.

    Last night vet friend of a friend of mine looked at him and was appalled that the ppe vet had said that he is suitable for jumping. She was offended that another vet had given me such bad information. She said absolutely no way would he hold up to jumping and in fact, may be suitable only to light trail-riding.

    When I asked her about the back at the knee she said that yes, he is but it looks worse because of the clubfoot.

    She recommended me getting a second ppe and filing a complaint to the veterinary board. She says that if they take action against the ppe vet then it would make it much easier for me to sue her.

    I'm pretty upset - this was my dream-horse that I invested a lot of money and time into. Plus he has an amazing brain, is a fantastic mover, and has incredible gaits. I would be willing to change to dressage if that is what he can do.

    My thought is that I will pay the $ to get the second opinion - if only for my peace of mind and then take it from there.

    Sorry for the long post but I hope I haven't been confusing. I would appreciate getting your opinion. It seems the more I think about this the more confused I get.


  • #2
    You have a few issues to sort out... but please do not tell all the club footed horses performing at far higher levels than you intend that they will not hold up. Unless we are talking about a far more serious club foot (surgical candidate) than it sounds from your post - forgive me, it sounds like maybe a grade 1, maybe 2 at the outside?

    Secondly, two months of not good trimming and a growth spurt is a LIFETIME in the land of babies and club feet. It really is all about the trim. There's every chance that the original vet was 100% correct in her assessment. It's been two months. Get your second opinion by all means, bet get your farrier on top of it sooner rather than later.
    Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.


    • Original Poster

      Thanks for your reply, DMK.

      Yes, I would say it's a grade 2 but that is my unprofessional opinion.

      My farrier has trimmed him 3 times in the past 2 months (one was really just a check-up and slight rasp as needed). Both vets are happy with his trim.

      I have been reading about successful club-footed horses and was feeling positive about him when I received the latest critique of his foot. Made me doubt my own opinion.

      He is exceptional in so many ways that I don't really want to give up on him but I don't want to break him either.



      • #4
        i bought a horse that had a club foot but he had surgery when he was a foal. it corrected the condition. the only way i knew he had a club foot was it came up on the PP exam that he had a torn check ligament. i asked the owners vet since i saw him pulling down the driveway and he said it was cut as a baby. a complete success story. i am not sure that they could cut it now, though being as your horse is older.
        i personally would not want a problem horse from the start. i would get to the bottom of whether the horse should be able to hold up or not. its heart breaking years later after you fall in love with the horse to realize your horse is broke and needs to be retired.


        • #5
          True, but there are so many ways that could happen. Not that you want the deck stacked against you from the start, but you own the horse and that is probably not going to change regardless of the outcome of any action against the vet.

          So aside from what people are saying, what is you are seeing? Typically club footed horses are also weaker in the shoulder (of the club footed leg) - if you can stand up above him and look down at the shoulders, do you see asymmetry? Is he "marchier" on the canter lead w/ the club foot?

          You need to look at the whole horse, not just the foot, and from the whole horse persepctive, that shoulder/foot relationship is key. Some people (myself included) favor adding a leather rim pad to the club foot, actually raising the club foot even higher. Sounds counterintuitive, but the thought behind club feet is (back to that shoulder) is sort of a chicken/egg thing. Maybe the foot trying to "stack" is to compensate for the weaker/lower shoulder, so if we give the shoulder the "lift" it was seeking, can that strengthen the whole horse enough relax the tendons/ligaments putting the strain on the back of the leg/hoof?

          In addition to that, stretching exercises and correct riding go a long way to fixing the root cause which then can help translate into a better foot (the symptom, not the cause).

          For what it's worth, the horse in my profile has a G1 club. He's 21 now, I got him when he was 3 and I think he was 16 in that picture. I would never say he is the picture of toughness and soundness, but I can say the one thing that hasn't given me a second thought is his club foot. Hell that might be his soundest bit!

          The biggest reason I know all of the above my farrier and I talk and he IS rather marchy on his right lead and I worked a lot to smooth that out because I kind of suck at finding distances while riding "marchy".
          Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.


          • #6
            To me, it sounds like your vet friend is an over-reacter. if the horse is sound, and it's a G2 club, with proper trimming, maintenance and shoes, the foot shouldn't cause you any trouble. A lawsuit against a vet who gave you her honest (to me) opinion sounds a bit extreme. I have an A/O horse with a G1/G2 club, and much like DMK, his clubby foot has been the soundest part of him, of late
            Last edited by pinkpony321; Apr. 30, 2013, 02:47 PM. Reason: forgot a word


            • Original Poster

              Thanks to everyone for your input.

              I have made the decision to accept him the way he is and trust the original vet's opinion. She saw the rads, my vet friend didn't.

              Would be nice to have a crystal ball but oh well!



              • #8
                Originally posted by Qharma View Post
                Thanks to everyone for your input.

                I have made the decision to accept him the way he is and trust the original vet's opinion. She saw the rads, my vet friend didn't.

                Would be nice to have a crystal ball but oh well!

                If it were me I would have "your" vet if you haven't already do a exam to make sure you have the green light to begin jumping AND give you something to work off of for the future farrier visits. Establish a plan.

                I recently purchased a horse that I was not aware had a slight club foot and an extremely contracted heel and frog. I have had my vet exam him and make sure we are good to go with the training I am doing. I have farrier well aware that I want this monitored closely. So far the hoof is doing well and the "butt crack" issue he had with that club foot when I got him is resolving slowly.

                I would just keep on top of everything working with your vet and farrier especially as he grows. You may have to do comparative x rays as time goes on and he grows.

                And to remark on the forever horse - enjoy every second because you never know when forever is.
                Last edited by doublesstable; Apr. 30, 2013, 10:32 PM. Reason: spelling
                Live in the sunshine.
                Swim in the sea.
                Drink the wild air.


                • #9
                  This happened to me

                  I had a horse vetted as a yearling states away and had the same thing happen. I was a kid and didn't know what I was doing. The horse passed the vet and when i showed him to my vet he was like yikes what have you done. The horse had a club and it was not even that severe, but his rads were not good. He did not hold up. He stayed sound until he was 6, then we kept him sound with injections until he was 9, and then went downhill from there. At 12 he was completely retired. I disagree that baby feet get better, I think that a club will get worse from a young horse to maturity. I should have went after that vet, but the horse was sound for a few years so whAt did I know. I would be weary of a young horse with a club, especially a big warmblood. The bigger they are the harder it is on them. I would buy an older horse with a club that has been competing and staying sound, but a young one you don't know if they will hold up.
                  Ever since then, I am soooo careful when picking vets from afar and I always have by vet review the X-rays.


                  • #10
                    The best thing you can do is employ a team from the get-go. So long as the horse is sound and happy, you only need two people on your team - a good farrier and a vet with a good eye for lameness and movement mechanics. Have them out at the same time, and discuss with them what you hope to do with the horse. Then, they can watch the horse go and talk together about the best approach and take any x-rays they need in order to make a plan.

                    With any luck, it's a one time deal. But- what you've done is open up a line of communication between vet and farrier when there is nothing seriously wrong. These conversations are 10 times harder when you are two years into having the vet and farrier work on the horse, and there is a problem. Vet blames farrier, farrier blames vet, and no one really wants to work openly with the other. You can also waste lots of time if farrier and vet have different objectives in mind for the proper hoof shape/angle/function.

                    If you get the go-ahead to put the horse to work, plan to have twice-yearly jogs along with your spring and fall shots. That way vet is watching the horse go on a regular basis, and will be in a better position to notice and help alter the plan if the horse isn't holding up to the work load.


                    • #11
                      Of course club foot and back at the knee are not perfect conformation but few horses are perfect and yet go to wonderful and successful lives! right off the top of my head I can think of one horse with a club foot, and back in one knee that is a 10+ mover and a superb and correct jumper, and another who is clubbed on one foot that is also a 10+ mover and showing some great stuff over fences! Like someone else said, unless you are showing in hand, you need to look at the whole horse and you can deal with less than perfect!


                      • Original Poster

                        Thank you so much! All your comments have helped me. I think having a plan with my vet and farrier is a great idea. My vet knows my farrier and and is happy with his work. They have both made the same comments independently to me about his trimming routine so they are on the same page.

                        I am taking Qharma to the mountains for the summer to get out of the AZ heat and when he comes back in October I will make an appointment with both vet and farrier before putting him to work.

                        And when I say "putting him to work" I mean ground work, light hacks, and trail-rides for a couple years and then re-evalute for jumping. This is definitely a long-term project which is fun for me! I'm not in a hurry to do anything.


                        • #13
                          I am curious for those who have out of state/area PPE done by vets that are not yours....do you not send that information to your vet also? I have used vets unknown to me for PPE, but they have then sent the info to me or my vet & we have discussed it.

                          I agree you do need to have a vet & farrier who can work together. Keeping the lines of communication open is excellent. My vet will make comments--even just to say the horse's feet look good, he's traveling well, etc....--that I pass on to my shoer.
                          "I'm not crazy...my mother had me tested"


                          • #14
                            My Oldenburg has a pretty good club foot (RF). She was OVER at the knee as a baby, the breeder tried everything to correct it, then just cut her at the knee.

                            She's now 12 and has never had a problem with that foot. She is a little bit balance challenged going clockwise, but so long as you ride her correctly, she's fine. If you're floppy, she just quits.

                            I did have to have a chat or 2 with my farrier (he trimmed that toe too short once).

                            Now, her OTHER 3 legs...well...she needs bubble wrap.


                            • #15
                              I'll chime in with everyone else. My 5yo had a pretty decent club foot when I got him as a yearling. I had a great farrier and the horse more or less "grew out of it" thanks to proactive trimming.

                              Back at the knee strikes me as something you should have seen on pictures prior to the purchase. I wouldn't expect a vet I didn't know to educate me on conformation beyond anything that would likely be a major problem. Depending on how severe it is (I'm guess "not very" from your description) I wouldn't expect that to fall into the range of something that would be a major issue.

                              As others have said, I've seen horses with all sorts of "defects" showing and winning at very high levels. It's more about how the horse is put together around those conformational faults than the actual faults.
                              Flying F Sport Horses
                              Horses in the NW


                              • #16
                                Flashy boy and seems like a nice mover.

                                Maybe you could show the XRays to a 3rd vet and get another opinion?
                                "When life gives you scurvy, make lemonade."