• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Causes for rotational falls over fences?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Original Poster

    #61
    Originally posted by RAyers View Post
    I still am confused about what you are trying to figure out. Rotational falls, whether stadium or XC, are multifactoral and can not be singularly attributed to the things initially presented. For example, If you made the rails VERY slick, e.g. coat with slick grease, you could prevent most rotational falls. That has nothing to do with form or rider. It is simple physics. You stop the transfer of momentum.

    Not all fences on XC can use a frangible pin. Also, micro damage accumulation in the pin can cause a rail to fall even if the horse does not hit it, thus adding a new form of danger/risk/penalty.
    I was saying that alot of people don't want XC courses changed because they believe it will become too much like show jumping...even if it means making the sport safer

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Caligirl123 View Post
      I was saying that alot of people don't want XC courses changed because they believe it will become too much like show jumping...even if it means making the sport safer
      I was talking about your original post and several of your follow-ups. Rotational falls can not be ascribed to single factors as it seems you are trying to determine.

      And, no, you are mistaken. We bitch about XC becoming jumpers because of the course design; tight turns, related distances, multiple combinations, and fences made to look like furniture. I don't know of any who did not support frangible pin designs. I even designed a collapsable table with a colleague here on COTH.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Caligirl123 View Post
        I don't think so. Why are cups at lower levels deeper then? Wouldn't be safer for all back rails of oxers to have safety cups?
        I don't understand these comments. At the shows I go to, the same cups are used in the lower levels and upper levels. No difference in depth between <1.0m and 1.60m. The only exception are the flat cups they sometimes use on a couple of fences in the upper level classes. But those are the exception, and not used in every class.

        And I agree with RAyers. I don't think you can pick any one factor that causes a rotational fall. I think it's a perfect storm of decisions/situations that results in a flip. Perhaps more often when a bad distance is part of the equation, but of the 3 rotational falls I've been part of, distance has not been a factor (meaning the distance was good in each case).

        It's like trying to figure out why humans trip on their own feet and fall sometimes.
        __________________________________
        Flying F Sport Horses
        Horses in the NW

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #64
          Originally posted by PNWjumper View Post
          I don't understand these comments. At the shows I go to, the same cups are used in the lower levels and upper levels. No difference in depth between <1.0m and 1.60m. The only exception are the flat cups they sometimes use on a couple of fences in the upper level classes. But those are the exception, and not used in every class.

          And I agree with RAyers. I don't think you can pick any one factor that causes a rotational fall. I think it's a perfect storm of decisions/situations that results in a flip. Perhaps more often when a bad distance is part of the equation, but of the 3 rotational falls I've been part of, distance has not been a factor (meaning the distance was good in each case).

          It's like trying to figure out why humans trip on their own feet and fall sometimes.
          Right yea I get that. It just seems like bad long distances are almost always a contributing factor. What happened in your falls? Were they in showjumping or cross country?

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Caligirl123 View Post
            Right yea I get that. It just seems like bad long distances are almost always a contributing factor. What happened in your falls? Were they in showjumping or cross country?
            My most recent one (3 or 4 years ago) was in a 1.20m jumper class over an oxer that was the first fence in a two-stride. The footing was horrible (really wet and sloppy and slippery) and I think my mare slipped or second guessed herself on take off, leading to a delay in getting her front feet off of the ground. The distance was not long and it was not short (or even a little tight). It was just a perfect storm of weird things that lead to a full flip with her rolling over the left side of her poll and landing on the right side of her back/butt. I was unconscious for a very brief moment and so they rushed me to the ER, and she was pretty scraped up, but surprisingly sound and comfortable to the point that I showed her in the 1.15m for the rest of the week. After we got home and she got some time off she ended up with a seroma in her chest that took a few months to go away, and a year or 2 later she developed a large lump on her poll that the vets think is bursitis as a [long term] result of the flip.

            My other two were on horses at home schooling over little-ish (3'6" range) fence. One was on my 5yo DWB gelding maybe 12 or 13 years ago and he just wasn't paying attention (as babies often do) and the jump was a narrow oxer (I think) set as an end fence. The footing was soft and deep, but not dangerously so, and it was a very soft landing for me. Neither of us were injured. The other was my old AO/GP horse when he was young-ish (so 20ish years ago) and it was the same story. Good distance, normal footing, but he was screwing around to the jump (bucking) and ended up flipping over the top of it and neither of us were injured. That was a life changing moment for him, though, and boy did he pay attention after that, lol!

            I'm sure that long distances (or chips) can be a factor in that they increase the amount of error that has gone into the effort, but I just don't think there's any one determining factor that causes a horse to flip in any given situation.
            __________________________________
            Flying F Sport Horses
            Horses in the NW

            Comment


            • #66
              Couple of months ago I was watching a training round (3'3) at a schooling event and witnessed a horse nick a top rail and get his feet tangled and land on his side. Rider was shaken and lucky her leg wasnt in the way. Her distance was short and he made a standstill effort. Not a full rotation, which I think was from the lack of speed, but enough that he landed on his shoulder/side.

              I've seen one rotation up close at an event. Quite scary, but both rider and horse limped away.
              I am on my phone 90% of the time. Please ignore typos, misplaced lower case letters, and the random word butchered by autocowreck.

              Comment


              • #67
                I am doing some research here and hope no one minds me asking a total beginner question. I'm getting myself psyched up for my first event ever, a starter event, elementary level. My OTTB is as honest as they get, and we comfortable show in the hunter ring at 2'6, and I admit that is where I am most comfortable. His dressage is terrific.

                My issue is this: I am not accustomed to fixed jumps. I'm going to do it, but I am trying to tell myself that a rotational fall is impossible over a solid log. :-) The physics explanation in this thread helps me, because he's not going to clip a log above the knee. :-) (he would have to bend down to get there) But, sometimes we do clip a rail and I am still unsure on what happens when we clip one that doesn't fall down. My event coach, who is amazing, is working on my confidence and has told me that I can trot my first XC if I want. Although, my boy is very good when we get out and gallop in the fields and up and down hills and if I could just get past the "solid" thing I know I could do a great job.

                Any tips on how to not panic about the first time over solid fences that won't be more than 18 inches? It helps me to absorb "worse case" to get more confidence.

                Thanks!
                "I am still under the impression there is nothing alive quite so beautiful
                as a thoroughbred horse."

                -JOHN GALSWORTHY

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by SaratogaTB View Post
                  I am doing some research here and hope no one minds me asking a total beginner question. I'm getting myself psyched up for my first event ever, a starter event, elementary level. My OTTB is as honest as they get, and we comfortable show in the hunter ring at 2'6, and I admit that is where I am most comfortable. His dressage is terrific.

                  My issue is this: I am not accustomed to fixed jumps. I'm going to do it, but I am trying to tell myself that a rotational fall is impossible over a solid log. :-) The physics explanation in this thread helps me, because he's not going to clip a log above the knee. :-) (he would have to bend down to get there) But, sometimes we do clip a rail and I am still unsure on what happens when we clip one that doesn't fall down. My event coach, who is amazing, is working on my confidence and has told me that I can trot my first XC if I want. Although, my boy is very good when we get out and gallop in the fields and up and down hills and if I could just get past the "solid" thing I know I could do a great job.

                  Any tips on how to not panic about the first time over solid fences that won't be more than 18 inches? It helps me to absorb "worse case" to get more confidence.

                  Thanks!

                  At that height...your chances of a rotational fall are the same with the jumps as without. In other words....if you horse trips and falls down which he could do without the jumps as much as with them.

                  Take a deep breath (or two), grab some mane....and trot the fences. You will have a blast.
                  ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by SaratogaTB View Post
                    I am doing some research here and hope no one minds me asking a total beginner question. I'm getting myself psyched up for my first event ever, a starter event, elementary level. My OTTB is as honest as they get, and we comfortable show in the hunter ring at 2'6, and I admit that is where I am most comfortable. His dressage is terrific.

                    My issue is this: I am not accustomed to fixed jumps. I'm going to do it, but I am trying to tell myself that a rotational fall is impossible over a solid log. :-) The physics explanation in this thread helps me, because he's not going to clip a log above the knee. :-) (he would have to bend down to get there) But, sometimes we do clip a rail and I am still unsure on what happens when we clip one that doesn't fall down. My event coach, who is amazing, is working on my confidence and has told me that I can trot my first XC if I want. Although, my boy is very good when we get out and gallop in the fields and up and down hills and if I could just get past the "solid" thing I know I could do a great job.

                    Any tips on how to not panic about the first time over solid fences that won't be more than 18 inches? It helps me to absorb "worse case" to get more confidence.

                    Thanks!
                    You should try and go cross country schooling before your first event, you will feel much more confident afterwards. Rotational falls are rare but do occur, just ride with impulsion and not speed.
                    Fillys By Vibank - 2017 Road to RRP
                    https://www.youtube.com/user/jealoushe

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Ditto the comments to get out and go schooling, though at 18", you're mostly going to have logs, and maybe a baby coop. If they hit something and it doesn't fall down? Generally they jump better over the next fence. Sort of the same theory at work behind poling, or getting a hard rub before going in for a jumper round.
                      A Year In the Saddle

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Long spot to an oxer will do it.

                        Comment

                        Working...
                        X