• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Concealing Past Injuries

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Concealing Past Injuries

    I'm consistently astonished to find out how frequently people in the h/j world fail to disclose or outright conceal past injuries to a horse. I have to say, this is not the norm that I have experienced in other areas of the horse world.

    I find it ridiculous and extremely dishonest. I'm not suggesting that a person has to disclose every scratch the horse has ever had, but I think it is absurd to conceal things that are or were major problems. If the horse had a serious injury but is recovered, then go ahead and say that. That's the honest and right thing to do.

    Not only is hiding a serious injury dishonest from a business perspective, it sets the horse you are selling up for a possible future of problems. If people do not know the horse's injury history, they may make choices they would not otherwise make.

    I'm not sure what the point of this post is other than that it's a bit of a frustrated vent. I'm 99% sure that a soft tissue injury on my own horse was concealed from me when I purchased him. That's old news, I'm over it, we've worked through it, I fixed the injury on my dime (instead of masking it with a steriod and selling him, as someone else appears to have done), and I'm happy my horse is with me.

    However, it has recently come to my attention that someone is extremely angry with me because I truthfully told someone else that a horse the seller was selling had had a ligament injury in the fairly recent past, but that I believed it had been fully rehabbed and the horse was now doing fine. It never even occurred to me that that information would have been withheld from the prospective buyer, because it is simply wrong to do. I should not be surprised, I suppose, because of who the seller's agent is. But, truly, what is wrong with people? How do *I* end up the bad guy in this situation? Sorry, but it is NOT my job to assist you in your dishonesty, and if you have a problem with that, then it tells me all I need to know about you.

    I get more and more disgusted with this industry every single day.

  • #2
    Originally posted by FineAlready View Post
    I'm consistently astonished to find out how frequently people in the h/j world fail to disclose or outright conceal past injuries to a horse.
    Apparently I have not had enough caffeine yet this morning, because when I first read this, I thought you meant that I should tell my horse about all my ailments.

    "Now Dobbin, please be nice to me...I have a metal plate in one hand that acts up when it's raining and I've had a few concussions, so please try not to lawn dart me..."

    But in all seriousness, I hate that as well. Be honest. If you truly care about the longterm welfare of the horse, you'll disclose any injuries or quirks he or she has.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      Originally posted by goodlife View Post
      Apparently I have not had enough caffeine yet this morning, because when I first read this, I thought you meant that I should tell my horse about all my ailments.

      "Now Dobbin, please be nice to me...I have a metal plate in one hand that acts up when it's raining and I've had a few concussions, so please try not to lawn dart me..."

      But in all seriousness, I hate that as well. Be honest. If you truly care about the longterm welfare of the horse, you'll disclose any injuries or quirks he or she has.
      Ha ha! Thank you for that laugh - it was much needed. You are right. It is poorly worded.

      Comment


      • #4
        [QUOTE=goodlife;6905489
        But in all seriousness, I hate that as well. Be honest. If you truly care about the longterm welfare of the horse, you'll disclose any injuries or quirks he or she has.[/QUOTE]

        Exactly! I've always told buyers about old injuries, hock injections etc., and will also release vet records if asked. If you have nothing to hide, it's not an issue (well with me anyway)!!
        Go Ahead: This is a dare, not permission. Don't Do It!

        Comment


        • #5
          I know someone that didn't disclose a prior suspensory tear to the new owner.

          Comment


          • #6
            When I have sold I have told about past injuries and issues.

            I am not sure why you think not disclosing is special to the hunter/jumper world. Horse traders did not get their bad reputation because of the hunter/jumper world. Trying to sneak a horse with issues off on an unsuspecting buyer is very old news, not something special to one industry of the horse world.

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Originally posted by trubandloki View Post
              When I have sold I have told about past injuries and issues.

              I am not sure why you think not disclosing is special to the hunter/jumper world. Horse traders did not get their bad reputation because of the hunter/jumper world. Trying to sneak a horse with issues off on an unsuspecting buyer is very old news, not something special to one industry of the horse world.
              I've found the eventing crowd to be FAR more honest in this respect.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                Originally posted by InjuredAlter View Post
                I know someone that didn't disclose a prior suspensory tear to the new owner.
                Yes, me too. I think this is very common because very few people ultrasound during a prepurchase.

                People really suck.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by FineAlready View Post
                  However, it has recently come to my attention that someone is extremely angry with me because I truthfully told someone else that a horse the seller was selling had had a ligament injury in the fairly recent past, but that I believed it had been fully rehabbed and the horse was now doing fine.
                  I have never concealed past issues with any horses, however, unless it was my trainer, I would still be very annoyed with anyone who injected themselves into the sale by giving the prospective buyer medical information about my horse because I would doubt they would have all the correct facts.
                  Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.
                  Serious Leigh: it sounds like her drama llama should be an old schoolmaster by now.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by RockinHorse View Post
                    I have never concealed past issues with any horses, however, unless it was my trainer, I would still be very annoyed with anyone who injected themselves into the sale by giving the prospective buyer medical information about my horse because I would doubt they would have all the correct facts.
                    Yes. Exactly!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I unintentionally withheld information from a prospective buyer. I had talked to about 12 people in a day in a half since his add posted and I mentioned it to everyone of them. I was sure I had mentioned it to this person as well, but when she came out to try him, she didn't know. Oops.

                      I did find that no matter the intended use, people would hear "healed soft tissue injury" and would move on. The horse was well priced (mid 4 figures) and was being sold as a low level dressage horse...and had stood up to 2 years post injury of flat work (W/T/C, lateral, counter canter, flying changes, etc) and some low jumping. All videos were post injury.

                      The prospective buyer did U/S based on the information and the vet saw no issue with it. She ended up with a nice horse for a nice price that could easily do what she intended with no issue.

                      I would NEVER withhold intentionally, although, I have to say, I'm almost glad it happened because she may have counted him out.

                      I also unintentionally disclosed information to a prospective buyer on a horse I was leasing. 'Course I don't feel like I can be blamed for that. I didn't know 1) the horse was for sale as I wasn't told or 2) the person I was talking to was interested (this wasn't about an injury, but that horse was a stopper). I do think there is a fine line there. If the seller does not disclose, I think it's fine for someone to mention they might want to ask about previous injuries, etc. We all know that if someone came on this board and said they bought a horse with an injury and everyone knew but didn't mention it, we'd be all over those in the know for not mentioning it. You don't need to get into details, but not saying anything is being complicit.
                      Last edited by RugBug; Mar. 27, 2013, 12:59 PM.
                      Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
                      Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Originally posted by RockinHorse View Post
                        I have never concealed past issues with any horses, however, unless it was my trainer, I would still be very annoyed with anyone who injected themselves into the sale by giving the prospective buyer medical information about my horse because I would doubt they would have all the correct facts.
                        I was specifically asked. The horse was being looked at by another friend. I didn't interject myself into the situation, I was asked an honest question and gave an honest response. I'd just as soon no one ever spoke to me about the stupid horse in the first place. But I'm not going to lie about it, and I wouldn't have expected the seller to lie about it either. Of course I don't have ALL of the details about the injury, but the seller does and should be forthcoming about them if asked.

                        I didn't really give any "facts" other than that I was aware the horse had been injured, but that I know it is now showing and therefore must be doing fine now.

                        And for the record, the purchaser passed on the horse because it was not suitable. Not because of the injury.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          "The horror, the horror!"

                          -- Joseph Conrad, The Heart of Darkness

                          Re: buying horses in general, but especially with respect to soft tissue injuries and in H/J World. (Maybe about the jungle of Africa and the people who live there, from the perspective of white imperialists who are totally out of their element but think they could/should dominate the world.)

                          OP, I feel ya. I think you did right but know, too, that once you say anything about the horse deal, you are essentially taking the buyer's side or the seller's side.
                          The armchair saddler
                          Politically Pro-Cat

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I would not buy a horse if the seller refuses to open the vet record.
                            Mendokuse

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Originally posted by mvp View Post
                              "The horror, the horror!"

                              -- Joseph Conrad, The Heart of Darkness

                              Re: buying horses in general, but especially with respect to soft tissue injuries and in H/J World. (Maybe about the jungle of Africa and the people who live there, from the perspective of white imperialists who are totally out of their element but think they could/should dominate the world.)

                              OP, I feel ya. I think you did right but know, too, that once you say anything about the horse deal, you are essentially taking the buyer's side or the seller's side.
                              I guess I do know that, which is why I wish no one would ever talk to me about anything, ever. Of course, I also said the horse is a really good boy, safe, kind, etc. But for some reason, no one is focusing on that.

                              Everyone in the effing world knows my horse pulled a suspensory a few years ago. It's not a secret, I'm not sure how I could ever keep it one, and I would NEVER fail to disclose that if I ever planned to sell him.

                              I guess in the future I will just say "I'd prefer not to comment on that particular horse," although I think that's loaded and much more damaging to a sale than just speaking truthfully about the horse.

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Originally posted by hunterrider23 View Post
                                I would not buy a horse if the seller refuses to open the vet record.
                                You do know that people use more than one vet and you will never be assured of getting all the vet records, right?

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I resent the fact that you restrict this to the "H/J World". Seriously? You don't think every discipline doesn't have this issue? Come on! I've got friends who compete in everything from trail to reining to dressage and eventing and every single one of them carry tales, either personal or from others in that 'world' who have experienced the exact same problems of non-disclosure to down right fraudulent hiding of injuries with drugs. Buyer beware, and buyer be smart--test for drugs, ask a ton of questions--from seller, seller's trainer and the grooms in the aisle.
                                  Proud member of the "Don't rush to kill wildlife" clique!

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Oh, it's DEFINITELY not something that only happens in the h/j world. I know dressage trainers (not "dealers" either - very legitimate trainers with respectable show records and full barns) who routinely, daily, hide injuries/ailments on horses they think they might ever sell. This goes as far as refusing to tell other boarders why Poopsie is suddenly on stall confinement and wrapped all around.

                                    ETA: at the barn I was at, this got to the point where trainer's horse was sent to another state for surgery. People (as in, long-time clients and friends) who noticed he was gone would ask what happened to trainer's fancy young horse? I was told to tell them I couldn't discuss it. Which of course leads people to raise eyebrows and assume all kinds of things (sale, euthanasia, who knows?). Two weeks later, horse returned, and again I couldn't tell anyone anything about it. Apparently the trainers were pretty certain that they could fail to disclose tie-back surgery and that would be A-OK.

                                    I get that you don't go around telling every client the history on every horse in your barn. Obviously. But I hate it when the "vibe" around a training barn is "don't ask, don't tell."

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Didn't Florida pass and Kentucky consider (don't know if it passed there) legislation requiring certain disclosures in livestock sales, i.e horses. I don't remember the details, but, IIRC, prior injury disclosure was mandated. What I don't remember is whether or not the injuries only had to be disclosed and vet records provided if the buyer asked about it.

                                      Anyone know the FL legislation specifics?
                                      "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                      Thread killer Extraordinaire

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Calvincrowe View Post
                                        I resent the fact that you restrict this to the "H/J World". Seriously? You don't think every discipline doesn't have this issue? Come on! I've got friends who compete in everything from trail to reining to dressage and eventing and every single one of them carry tales, either personal or from others in that 'world' who have experienced the exact same problems of non-disclosure to down right fraudulent hiding of injuries with drugs. Buyer beware, and buyer be smart--test for drugs, ask a ton of questions--from seller, seller's trainer and the grooms in the aisle.
                                        Interesting. As I've mentioned, I have encountered this far more in the h/j world than elsewhere. And, yes, I'm experienced with "elsewhere." Maybe I've just experienced the bad people in the h/j community and the good people in the other communities, but MY experience has been that this is more common in the h/j world.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X