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Concealing Past Injuries

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  • #41
    Originally posted by FineAlready View Post
    I think this is very common because very few people ultrasound during a prepurchase.
    Jesus H.....

    Just a spin-off: Has anyone entertained including ultrasound examinations of This or That in a PPE? If so, which parts would you do? And the "Jesus H.... " part: the additional cost!
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat

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    • #42
      Originally posted by starlight View Post
      Is it dishonest to never disclose these types of injuries...yes, but since it's not law, there is no way to enforce it.
      For no good reason, I believe this isn't quite true: The seller is obligated to disclose an injury *that the buyer asks about*.

      ETA: MuddyHalter says so. I footnote MuddyHalter as my authority.

      Other qualified folks: Are we right?

      If so, it's caveat emptor... which looks like a long, long list of questions.
      The armchair saddler
      Politically Pro-Cat

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      • #43
        Originally posted by mvp View Post
        Jesus H.....

        Just a spin-off: Has anyone entertained including ultrasound examinations of This or That in a PPE? If so, which parts would you do? And the "Jesus H.... " part: the additional cost!
        I've had an ultrasound done on a horse that I was doing a PPE on...and passed on the horse based on what my vet found. I had another that I did buy. (both were front leg issues) It is typically done when you find something and want to know whether it is really an issue or not. For me, one horse was going to be more of a risk than I was willing to take and the other one showed that it wasn't going to be a problem (and it wasn't). I've known of several sale horses that it was done on...especially UL event horses selling for the high dollar. It actually isn't all that expensive but it really depends on your vet and their expertise. My vet has a machine with them all the time. On my own horses, we often will do a base line ultrasound of their front legs at least. It helps you to know their normal and catch things early before there is a significant issue.
        ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

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        • Original Poster

          #44
          If I ever buy another horse, I will either vet the absolute snot out of it (including ultrasounds of pretty much everything below the knees/hocks, or I won't bother vetting at all. I think the average prepurchase is pretty useless, honestly.

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by FineAlready View Post
            If I ever buy another horse, I will either vet the absolute snot out of it (including ultrasounds of pretty much everything below the knees/hocks, or I won't bother vetting at all. I think the average prepurchase is pretty useless, honestly.
            Don't forget to do stifles.
            "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
            Thread killer Extraordinaire

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            • #46
              Originally posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
              I was just astounded recently when we were vetting out an inexpensive QH mare for a client of mine who would do low-level lessons and pleasure riding. The vet checked for NOT only "nerving" scars on the pasterns, but COLIC SURGERY scar on the midline! I said, Holy Crow, do people try to pass that stuff OFF??!

              She said, "Every Day."
              I looked at a horse once and asked the owner if he had any prior injuries, lameness or illness. She told me that he had a bad abcess the year before but otherwise never had any problems. The horse's trainer was there when I was doing the prepurchase, but not the owner. The vet felt his stomach and said I think this is a scar from colic surgery. I asked the trainer if the horse had ever had colic surgery. He said he didn't know; he'd have to call the owner. He came back and told us that yes, apparently he did have colic surgery a year and a half prior. Funny how the owner remembered the abcess but 'forgot' the surgery! Also funny that I found out later that the trainer was the one who trailered the horse to the clinic for the surgery.

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              • #47
                Originally posted by silvermar View Post
                I looked at a horse once and asked the owner if he had any prior injuries, lameness or illness. She told me that he had a bad abcess the year before but otherwise never had any problems. The horse's trainer was there when I was doing the prepurchase, but not the owner. The vet felt his stomach and said I think this is a scar from colic surgery. I asked the trainer if the horse had ever had colic surgery. He said he didn't know; he'd have to call the owner. He came back and told us that yes, apparently he did have colic surgery a year and a half prior. Funny how the owner remembered the abcess but 'forgot' the surgery! Also funny that I found out later that the trainer was the one who trailered the horse to the clinic for the surgery.
                Yikes... Guess colic surgery is so common these days that the trainer clearly just forgot about it, or something.

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by mvp View Post
                  For no good reason, I believe this isn't quite true: The seller is obligated to disclose an injury *that the buyer asks about*.

                  Unless they manage to get the buyer to sign an "as is" document...

                  I asked a seller about a three month old colt I was looking to buy noticing the mare had HUGE melanomas, and asked if the colt was born okay without problems of the melanomas.. to my face this woman said everything was perfect.

                  After buying colt he had to have wobbler fusion surgery... and found out by other boarders and staff that horse was born very small because the seller "starved" the mare so the foal would be born small to pass through the melanomas. Sellers vet told seller the horse or the foal would not make it. Foal would not stand for four days after birth and the mare was sent to the killer pens by the seller. Yeah, no problems lady. I ended up loosing the colt... but it was sad that no one would stand up to this seller. But good thing is this seller/trainer has developed a bad reputation over the years.

                  Horse traders are out there and best thing to do is know who you are purchasing from that have a good reputation or good references in the industry.

                  I had another horse that owner didn't disclose when I asked if horse had any issues I needed to be aware of, she forgot to tell me the horse was NERVED. I would still have purchased him because it was more of a companion horse anyway but it would have been nice if she just told me for the horses sake.
                  Live in the sunshine.
                  Swim in the sea.
                  Drink the wild air.

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                  • #49
                    Originally posted by mvp View Post
                    Jesus H.....

                    Just a spin-off: Has anyone entertained including ultrasound examinations of This or That in a PPE? If so, which parts would you do? And the "Jesus H.... " part: the additional cost!
                    I have heard of people doing a full-body scintigraphy on a horse as part of a pre-purchase which is way more pricey than an ultrasound.
                    The Evil Chem Prof

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                    • #50
                      Originally posted by Peggy View Post
                      I have heard of people doing a full-body scintigraphy on a horse as part of a pre-purchase which is way more pricey than an ultrasound.

                      Probably a good resource and worth the $1,500 price tag for a $$$$$ horse
                      Live in the sunshine.
                      Swim in the sea.
                      Drink the wild air.

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                      • #51
                        Originally posted by mvp View Post
                        Jesus H.....

                        Just a spin-off: Has anyone entertained including ultrasound examinations of This or That in a PPE? If so, which parts would you do? And the "Jesus H.... " part: the additional cost!
                        I have. The horse has a little thickening in his ankle so I had it ultrasounded.
                        Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.
                        Serious Leigh: it sounds like her drama llama should be an old schoolmaster by now.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          While, I totally agree there should be full disclosure by all parties to a sale, I do not agree with other people chiming in on the medical information of a sale horse.

                          I am very open about my horses, their injuries and surgeries because I would only sell with full disclosure. That being said, I can't tell you how many people are wrong about what has been wrong. I had a horse that hurt his hock. Two differnt people on two different occaisons asked me how is knee was doing .

                          Also, most outsiders are not privy to all of the vet information and treatment, protocols and prognosis information that has been discussed with the vet.
                          Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.
                          Serious Leigh: it sounds like her drama llama should be an old schoolmaster by now.

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Here's an honest question - is there a time limit? If the injury occurred 1 year ago, 5 years ago, more? Is every single thing supposed to be disclosed? Only serious injuries? Do you tell a prospective buyer about abscesses? Minor bumps, bruises, etc, etc.

                            Reputation is everything and people who knowingly sell an injured horse are being stupid about it since yes, it usually comes up at some point and once your reputation is gone, that's it.

                            But on the same notion, it's not the seller's obligation to disclose every single little thing, if they even remember it (and honestly, in big barns, you probably won't remember that Dobbin got dinged up in turnout 2 years ago and required 2 weeks off).
                            Visit us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/ranchopampa or our website at www.ranchopampa.com

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                            • #54
                              So far I have been pretty lucky (knock on wood) with sellers being honest to me about a horse I am buying. I did have an interesting situation with a pony I leased out. They were reluctant to release their vet records of my pony to me when the lease ended. It was very concerning to us but there ended up being nothing unusual on them anyways.
                              When buying a horse, I want to know major stuff. (little stuff would be nice too though..never can know too much!) I want to know about lameness, colic, ulcers, anything that I could be proactive about if I were to buy the horse still. If they hide it, they are not being fair to the horse, because it could be something prevented by the new owner.

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #55
                                Originally posted by RockinHorse View Post
                                While, I totally agree there should be full disclosure by all parties to a sale, I do not agree with other people chiming in on the medical information of a sale horse.

                                I am very open about my horses, their injuries and surgeries because I would only sell with full disclosure. That being said, I can't tell you how many people are wrong about what has been wrong. I had a horse that hurt his hock. Two differnt people on two different occaisons asked me how is knee was doing .

                                Also, most outsiders are not privy to all of the vet information and treatment, protocols and prognosis information that has been discussed with the vet.
                                Just to clarify a few things: the buyer's trainer called me and asked me for information about the horse. I was asked a direct question and gave a direct answer. The answer I gave WAS correct. No one, not even the seller, asserts that the information was incorrect. The issue that the seller (apparently) has is that they were trying to conceal the injury in question, and I disclosed it.

                                Second, the buyer learned this same information from multiple sources other than me. I won't go into details, but this injury wasn't exactly the best kept secret in the world, which is why it honestly never even occurred to me that it would not have been disclosed. It wasn't some kind of horrific, catastrophic thing, either. It was the type of injury most people would consider notable but it wasn't necessarily career limiting depending on how it healed (which is information I do not have, of course).

                                Third, the buyers actually didn't even care about the injury once they learned of it. They passed on the horse for reasons completely unrelated to the injury.

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #56
                                  Originally posted by ladybugsbw View Post
                                  If they hide it, they are not being fair to the horse, because it could be something prevented by the new owner.
                                  I completely agree with this. People hide this stuff because they are selfish. They want to sell the horse for what it would be worth if the injury had never happened. In the end, it is really the horse that loses.

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by RockinHorse View Post
                                    While, I totally agree there should be full disclosure by all parties to a sale, I do not agree with other people chiming in on the medical information of a sale horse.

                                    I am very open about my horses, their injuries and surgeries because I would only sell with full disclosure. That being said, I can't tell you how many people are wrong about what has been wrong. I had a horse that hurt his hock. Two differnt people on two different occaisons asked me how is knee was doing .

                                    Also, most outsiders are not privy to all of the vet information and treatment, protocols and prognosis information that has been discussed with the vet.
                                    This is pretty much my approach as well. I am happy to turn over vet records, the horse's history, etc when I sell one. The last horse I sold went to someone who had had a few bad experiences, and did the longest, most thorough vetting I've ever seen... including a full cervical series. She spent $$$$$ on it (and yes, included ultrasound, which I thought was interesting.) The horse vetted out fine and the buyer now has an excellent baseline of the horse's health to compare him to in future years, which I think is pretty smart.

                                    Like mvp, I was raised to stay out of other people's veterinary matters and am always surprised how many people seem to feel free to consider themselves welcome to participate in other owner's discussions with their vets. I've actually asked people "to excuse us," when I am talking to my vet, not because I have anything to hide, but because I feel like it's none of their d*mn business!! And that's on matters with my personal horse(s)...not sales animals, so it's not driven out of any economic concern. I just feel like those conversations should be private, not fodder for barn discussion/gossip.

                                    While I understand why buyers will sometimes try to get information about a horse they are considering from parties unrelated to the transaction... I personally don't feel comfortable participating in those types of conversations. If I think it's a nice horse, I'll certainly say so, but that is about as far as I will go.

                                    For the record, it's not a matter of trying to hide anything; I just figure that since I am not involved in the horse's day to day care and certainly haven't been a party to any conversations with the treating professionals... I really don't "know" anything for sure - and thus have nothing really useful to share. So many times I've seen/heard things about other people's horses that turn out not to be true, or were thought to be true at one point, but then (usually after more diagnostics or whatever) end up being something else entirely.
                                    **********
                                    We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
                                    -PaulaEdwina

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                                    • #58
                                      A lady in my area that fancies herself a trainer was given a horse back which she sold years prior. She was lame, and unsafe for riding at this point. She was never really safe but the new owner kept her. Circumstances changed, and the trainer agreed to take the mare back because she wanted to use her as a broodmare.

                                      A month later the horse shows up on ad sights with a pricetag of $5000. No mention of the horses past injury, claiming to be a good horse for the hunter jumpers. Well, the old owner of the horse saw this and was just livid. She gave her the horse thinking she would have a permanent retirement home, when now she was being sold lame and unsafe.

                                      She took it upon herself to blast all the horses lameness issues all over the trainers FB page and shame her for trying to sell a lame, unsafe horse. Was a sort of justice I guess!
                                      Fillys By Vibank - 2017 Road to RRP
                                      https://www.youtube.com/user/jealoushe

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                                      • #59
                                        double post
                                        Fillys By Vibank - 2017 Road to RRP
                                        https://www.youtube.com/user/jealoushe

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                                        • Original Poster

                                          #60
                                          Well, Lucassb, I certainly do not get involved in other people's discussions with their vets, and any information I have came directly FROM THE OWNER of the horse. And, actually, I said a lot of nice things about the horse as well. Nice enough things that the people ended up taking the horse on trial even knowing about the injury. But the horse didn't work out for completely unrelated reasons.

                                          The next time someone asks me anything about a horse I know, I'm simply going to say that I won't discuss the horse at all. I personally think that makes things sound even MORE nefarious than simply speaking honestly about the things that are pretty widely known about the horse, but that's what I'm going to do from now on. Screw it.

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