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Monopony: Pony Market 2013

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  • #81
    Originally posted by not really new View Post
    Look in the mirror and you may just see the biggest problem with "your" pony market. In my opinion just because you can create excel charts and send a barrage of skewed market propaganda does not make what you say true.

    In the last six months alone we bought two division ponies with the help of our trusted long time trainer. The truth is that we have skipped right past all of your ponies as possible options. These are ponies that if listed with a different barn or agent might well be considered but the thought of working a deal together just puts me off.

    Luckily, in my opinion at least, it seems that you have a healthy financial cushion and are in position to carry the cost of all these animals for some time
    And here is the voice of true reason, an actual potential customer of legitimate division ponies who passed on even looking at the ponies available from Amberhill because of the OP. I doubt if this will penetrate the armor of denial and self-delusion protecting the OP, but this pony-buying customer appears to clearly be saying "The problem isn't them, the problem is you."
    "Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?" Sun Tzu, The Art of War
    Rainy
    Stash

    Comment


    • #82
      If indeed this pony had an underlying Lung Condition..would the drugs , supplements,& vitamins regiment have masked the condition, The longer it went the worse it got while all along the owner continued to follow a routine that was slowely killing the pony. Just a question. .

      Comment


      • #83
        Originally posted by MIKES MCS View Post
        If indeed this pony had an underlying Lung Condition..would the drugs , supplements,& vitamins regiment have masked the condition, The longer it went the worse it got while all along the owner continued to follow a routine that was slowely killing the pony. Just a question. .
        I'm just going off of documents that the OP previously posted, but if what she is basing that statement on is from said documents, all they said was that the pony had very high eosinophil levels in its blood when it died. Eosinophil levels are often high because of allergies or parasites. There was speculation of an underlying condition as an attempt to explain those levels, but there was no diagnosis.

        I'm not going to argue with the OP at this point because it's clear that she hasn't changed (and probably never will). In my opinion, she is an embarrassment to this sport.
        http://www.youtube.com/user/supershorty628
        Proudly blogging for The Chronicle of the Horse!

        Comment


        • #84
          In my opinion... we might all do well to consider exercising CoTH's very thoughtfully provided "ignore" function. Without an audience, perhaps we'd see less of this sort of material. Just an opinion.
          **********
          We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
          -PaulaEdwina

          Comment


          • #85
            FWIW, I have not made a single comment on the pony. The article is chock full of assumptions, accusations & opinions and utterly lacking in real data. That alone is enough to call it out.

            For the life of me I cannot see how this is not self-promotion. Is it only because it lacks the actual statement "Come buy my ponies"? As someone who guards very, very carefully against abusing the privilege of this board it kind of irks me.

            It's also driving me batty that this lady spent years throwing obscene amounts of money at the sport and by sheer numerical advantage took some of the top placings in this country, and then has the gall to come here and bemoan that "it's all going to the 1%".

            Those 2010 #1 pony owner in the country points? Let's take a look at those.

            Medium Ponies (Zone 2):
            • Zone Champion: Touchdown, not owned by AHF ~ 27 competitions (2368.5 points)
            • Zone Reserve Champion: Royal T, owned by AHF ~ 32 competitions (2112 points)
            • Zone Third: Blue Cowboy, owned by AHF ~ 36 competitions (1940.5 points)
            • Zone Fourth: El Nino, not owned by AHF ~ 19 competitions (1938 points)


            Medium Ponies (National)
            • National Champion: Macy Grey, not owned by AHF ~ 27 competitions (8803 points)
            • National Reserve Champion: Royal T, owned by AHF ~ 32 competitions (6886 points)
            • National Third: Blue Cowboy, owned by AHF ~ 36 competitions (5969.5 points)
            • National Fourth: Brighton Undeniably, not owned by AHF ~ 23 competitions (5947)


            To note:
            • Both her medium ponies showed more than any other medium pony in the country.
            • In both the National & Zone points her Reserve Champion was around 200 points behind the winner, despite doing 5 more competitions than the winner.
            • In both the National & Zone points her 3rd place pony just barely edged out the 4th place pony despite doing at least 10 more competitions than said 4th place pony.


            Large Ponies:
            • Zone: Jet Blue (owned by AHF), Reserve Champion. Did only 1 more show (31) than the Champion but was 300 points behind the Champion. Did 9 more shows than 3rd Place with less than 100 points separating them.
            • National: Jet Blue, 11th Place with 31 competitons. The 10th Place pony went to 15 shows, they are separated by only 21 points. The Champion went to only 2 fewer shows yet earned 4,600+ more points than JB.


            Small Green Ponies:
            • Zone Champion: Bo Peep, owned by AHF, with 26 shows and 1637 points.
            • The Zone Reserve Champion, not owned by AHF, took the award with only 10 shows.
            • National Champion: Bo Peep with 26 shows and 4608 points.
            • The National Reserve Champion showed 15 times.
            • No other pony in this division showed more than 17 times, that pony placed 3rd Nationally.


            That is 125 horse shows just for these ponies.

            Tell me again how you did not contribute to this 1% problem?
            Last edited by dags; Mar. 15, 2013, 11:51 AM.
            EHJ | FB | #140 | watch | #insta

            Comment


            • #86
              hypocrite

              Originally posted by amberhill View Post
              @horseynjwarrior

              What hurts Emma most is your vile, defamatory and racist videos. After the USEF BOD posted them to his Facebook page and Emma learned of them, she texted my 80 year old father who was so upset by her texts that he had chest pains and couldn't breathe and ended up in the hospital for a good period of time. Thankfully, he has recovered fully. I am so glad you took so much time to cause pain to my daughter. If you post racially slurred videos on the Internet I can only imagine what goes on in your home.

              @ all

              And for the record, I did think I killed Humble at first because the only possible reason for his death was if I had hit the carotid artery. I was beside myself and reacted as any loving owner would. I was not thinking of myself... I was thinking of Humble. I wasn't concerned with anything else but Humble and my daughter. The next day when the pathologist called me to inform me about his diseased lungs I was shocked but in hindsight it made sense. Not that it made Emma nor I feel any better about losing him, but at least we had closure in that regard.

              @ all

              22 animals have died at competitions last year and the only one focused on is the one that has a necropsy and toxicology performed by one of the top clinics in the nation clearing any wrongdoing. Humble was tested for over 1100 substances. In my opinion, animals are dropping ringside and in schooling areas and BNTs who don't sign entry blanks get away with claiming it was a "bee sting". I am pushing the USEF hard for investigations and/or necropsies to be performed on EVERY animal that dies or drops at a USEF sanctioned competition. I am also pushing hard for due process rights for all USEF members so that another member does not get temporarily suspended without a hearing because of a false protest based on ulterior motives filed against them. If anything comes out of the loss of Humble it should be these two rule changes/additions.

              @COTH
              Your continued platform for disparagement is obscene. This post is about the pony market and the monopolies in the hunter jumper world and that you even allow such distasteful posts is a telling.
              Ms. Mandarino I do believe you owe Heritage Farm, the Gates family and Lillie Keenan an apology. You just made a major accusation based upon zero facts. It is appalling that someone who is beating the "I've been wrongly accused" drum so fricking loudly is turning around and doing THE EXACT SAME THING. I'm pretty sure you have filed lawsuits over much less than what you just posted. I really really really hope either Heritage, the Gates or the Keenans sue your pathetic ***.

              Comment


              • #87
                @ dags:

                I know nothing about the Pony Ecosystem and the keystone species of trainers there. But I think you might be right: Mandarino has invested a great deal in knocking on the BNPT door and has found it too closed.

                Any of us No-Names could have written the same thing and this discussion would have gone very differently. It is frustrating as an ammy to see the concentration of power at the top and the lack of transparency, let alone the USEF's concern for its rank-and-file membership. But I'll be willing to bet that it's that much worse if you are a very involved, very invested trainer. I don't envy those folks. Perhaps they are on the rank-and-file's side with respect to how the USEF runs.

                Or the other moral of the story is: No matter how much you have spent, when you are tapped out there is someone else with more money and less disappointment waiting to get in. It's truly phenomenal how much money gets spent and whether or not its that same people spending fortunes over time or one family at a time getting in, spending to their limit and getting back out, the horse show world doesn't care.
                The armchair saddler
                Politically Pro-Cat

                Comment


                • #88
                  In looking at these statistics you should consider where these points are obtained. You can rack up points if you show in Gulfport versus WEF or even Ocala. It is just not the same competition. In summer the NJ/PA smaller shows have thes ame level of competition. And the same goes for the eq. The group of juniors riding at Gulport are not the same competition one will face at WEF or Ocala. So a lot of the hype about being top in Zone or getting qualified for Indoors is just that.

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    Originally posted by dags
                    HOTY is very well-known to be little more than a checkbook race.
                    .
                    This might be my new signature!!!
                    Randee Beckman ~Otteridge Farm, LLC (http://on.fb.me/1iJEqvR)~ Marketing Manager - The Clothes Horse & Jennifer Oliver Equine Insurance Specialist

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      Originally posted by busylady View Post
                      Ms. Mandarino I do believe you owe Heritage Farm, the Gates family and Lillie Keenan an apology. You just made a major accusation based upon zero facts. It is appalling that someone who is beating the "I've been wrongly accused" drum so fricking loudly is turning around and doing THE EXACT SAME THING. I'm pretty sure you have filed lawsuits over much less than what you just posted. I really really really hope either Heritage, the Gates or the Keenans sue your pathetic ***.
                      Who is calling whom a hypocrite? Were you not around a couple weeks ago when the COTH Indignation Machine had the bee stung collapsing horse and its famous entourage in it's sights?

                      So it's cool if we call for the USEF to care about stuff like this, but it's not cool if Elizabeth Mandarino does? How do you figure?

                      IMO, you poor and reasonable people are making a mistake. None of us would have the inclination or dough to litigate the USEF into good behavior. If Mandarino does and you get what you want.... then what?
                      The armchair saddler
                      Politically Pro-Cat

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        Originally posted by dags View Post
                        FWIW, I have not made a single comment on the pony. The article is chock full of assumptions, accusations & opinions and utterly lacking in real data. That alone is enough to call it out.

                        For the life of me I cannot see how this is not self-promotion. Is it only because it lacks the actual statement "Come buy my ponies"? As someone who guards very, very carefully against abusing the privilege of this board it kind of irks me.

                        It's also driving me batty that this lady spent years throwing obscene amounts of money at the sport and by sheer numerical advantage took some of the top placings in this country, and then has the gall to come here and bemoan that "it's all going to the 1%".

                        Those 2010 #1 pony owner in the country points? Let's take a look at those.

                        Medium Ponies (Zone 2):
                        • Zone Champion: Touchdown, not owned by AHF ~ 27 competitions (2368.5 points)
                        • Zone Reserve Champion: Royal T, owned by AHF ~ 32 competitions (2112 points)
                        • Zone Third: Blue Cowboy, owned by AHF ~ 36 competitions (1940.5 points)
                        • Zone Fourth: El Nino, not owned by AHF ~ 19 competitions (1938 points)


                        Medium Ponies (National)
                        • National Champion: Macy Grey, not owned by AHF ~ 27 competitions (8803 points)
                        • National Reserve Champion: Royal T, owned by AHF ~ 32 competitions (6886 points)
                        • National Third: Blue Cowboy, owned by AHF ~ 36 competitions (5969.5 points)
                        • National Fourth: Brighton Undeniably, not owned by AHF ~ 23 competitions (5947)


                        To note:
                        • Both her medium ponies showed more than any other medium pony in the country.
                        • In both the National & Zone points her Reserve Champion was around 200 points behind the winner, despite doing 5 more competitions than the winner.
                        • In both the National & Zone points her 3rd place pony just barely edged out the 4th place pony despite doing at least 10 more competitions than said 4th place pony.


                        Large Ponies:
                        • Zone: Jet Blue (owned by AHF), Reserve Champion. Did only 1 more show (31) than the Champion but was 300 points behind the Champion. Did 9 more shows than 3rd Place with less than 100 points separating them.
                        • National: Jet Blue, 11th Place with 31 competitons. The 10th Place pony went to 15 shows, they are separated by only 21 points. The Champion went to only 2 fewer shows yet earned 4,600+ more points than JB.


                        Small Green Ponies:
                        • Zone Champion: Bo Peep, owned by AHF, with 26 shows and 1637 points.
                        • The Zone Reserve Champion, not owned by AHF, took the award with only 10 shows.
                        • National Champion: Bo Peep with 26 shows and 4608 points.
                        • The National Reserve Champion showed 15 times.
                        • No other pony in this division showed more than 17 times, that pony placed 3rd Nationally.


                        That is 125 horse shows just for these ponies.

                        Tell me again how you did not contribute to this 1% problem?
                        Exactly. The article itself - its arguments and "data" are lacking, at best, and incredibly biased. The article guised as "educational" regarding the pony market appears to be an attempt at damage control by placing blame on everyone/everything else. Not to mention the article makes accusations - as well as subsequent posts here - about other professionals. If someone is so upset by others "targeting" them, going after everyone else is so irrational, not to mention a poor way to build back credibility. This alone could constitute self-promotional intentions, as the message is clear - a specific "trainer" has been targeted, other professionals are bad and take advantage of their clients, and the aforementioned trainer is the only honest and reliable trainer around.

                        Honestly, the subject of the pony market - or the hunter/jumper market in general could make for a lively discussion, but trying to discredit other professionals and lacking any empirical data does not make for an interesting, intelligent conversation - let alone educating anyone.
                        Last edited by starphish; Mar. 15, 2013, 12:43 PM. Reason: spelling

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          @COTH
                          Your continued platform for disparagement is obscene. This post is about the pony market and the monopolies in the hunter jumper world and that you even allow such distasteful posts is a telling.
                          I wouldn't blame Coth for what's posted here or for peoples' opinions on your reputation.
                          The entire horse world outside of pony hunters knows of your reputation due entirely to yourself. And not because of what happened to Humble. From before that. You've been extremely loud and abrasive since your start in showing. Have hit sites and publications and any media source you could for as much attention as you could possibly garner for yourself.
                          If none of that attention you've so craved and groomed is the type you want it to be, you have only yourself to blame. Bombastic and self-congratulatory mixed with insulting and accusations of everyone else is NOT the best way to start out.
                          Top it all off with flying lawsuit attempts on any and all people who have not smooched your tuckus (before Humble) and that is the reason the Humble debacle has become so annoying for you.
                          You may imagine yourself the Rosa Parks of straightening out the USEF, but reality is more like the Octomom of the USEF.
                          Nobody has had to make anything up...you provide scads and reams of the rope in which you so often find yourself hanging from.
                          And despite your attempts, it doesn't seem Coth will be forced into what YOU want it to be: a new media outlet for you to use as your own controlled platform. You can't control everything...despite legal help and a hefty income. You can't buy respect, experience, morals or sanity.

                          As for there being issues in pony divisions...people, it's hunters. It's subjective. It's placed solely on opinion. And the wheels of that opinion machine are greased with reputation, connections and money. That's been the facts for decades now. None of it has changed. Why? Because you're paying for opinion! The big worry in hunters has stayed the same since forever...don't rock the boat, don't be different, emulate what the wealthiest do. And people are surprised that it's warped? Of course it is. And what do all the hunters say when these threads come up a billion times each year? "I know, and it's unfair but *I* am definitely not going to stop paying to do it and not rock the boat verbally either!"
                          You reap what you sow.
                          Hunters the way it is sowed Ms Mandarino and y'all now have her reaped and running amok. And she's now your voice is dissention against The System. Nobody else stepped up so you got that as your shining example. So change won;t be for the better because of who came in the door you left wide open.

                          This is the main reason why ages ago hunters was the first step for jumpers or eventing. It was a learning step because it was so screwed up people left it as soon as they became experienced enough to recognize the crap.

                          Hunters could be fantastic, a beautiful expression of a well behaved/well trained animal. But a WHOLE lot of change has to take place.
                          You jump in the saddle,
                          Hold onto the bridle!
                          Jump in the line!
                          ...Belefonte

                          Comment


                          • #93
                            Bolding mine.

                            Originally posted by starphish View Post
                            Exactly. The article itself - its arguments and "data" are lacking, at best, and incredibly biased. The article guised as "educational" regarding the pony market appears to be an attempt at damage control by placing blame on everyone/everything else. Not to mention the article makes accusations - as well as subsequent posts here - about other professionals. If someone is so upset by others "targeting" them, going after everyone else is so irrational, not to mention a poor way to build back credibility. This alone could constitute self-promotional intentions, as the message is clear - a specific "trainer" has been targeted, other professionals are bad and take advantage of their clients, and the aforementioned trainer is the only honest and reliable trainer around.

                            Honestly, the subject of the pony market - or the hunter/jumper market in general could make for a lively discussion, but trying to discredit other professionals and lacking any empirical data does not make for an interesting, intelligent conversation - let alone educating anyone.
                            Bingo.

                            In re: to mvp's respectable concerns. I have reasons for not wanting to line up with this person that go beyond Humble and even (gasp) beyond the internet. The latest reason, though, is launching this whole thing in conjunction with trying to get her daughter back a junior year. That shows me exactly what this is all about: Her. Also, I do not agree in any way, shape, or form that the way to fix the sport is to go through the USOC. They are not horse people and their interference has put this sport in a tailspin at least once before. So no, I don't care how deep her pockets are. She does not represent the sport I am looking for and her plan does not jive with my own. I am not jumping on some internet bandwagon, I just vehemently disagree with her, and she's wasting everyone's time.
                            EHJ | FB | #140 | watch | #insta

                            Comment


                            • #94
                              Originally posted by mvp View Post
                              Who is calling whom a hypocrite? Were you not around a couple weeks ago when the COTH Indignation Machine had the bee stung collapsing horse and its famous entourage in it's sights?

                              So it's cool if we call for the USEF to care about stuff like this, but it's not cool if Elizabeth Mandarino does? How do you figure?

                              IMO, you poor and reasonable people are making a mistake. None of us would have the inclination or dough to litigate the USEF into good behavior. If Mandarino does and you get what you want.... then what?
                              No MVP, I wasn't around. Considering that I am no where near Wellington I had no place in that discussion and as such didn't post. I wasn't aware that the cothers who posted about the bee sting were also crying over being falsely accused of drugging.

                              Comment


                              • #95
                                If it's any consolation, I don't expect AH and EM to be around once the daughter is no longer a junior. Maybe she'll go back to brokering puppies.
                                "Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?" Sun Tzu, The Art of War
                                Rainy
                                Stash

                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  Originally posted by busylady View Post
                                  No MVP, I wasn't around. Considering that I am no where near Wellington I had no place in that discussion and as such didn't post. I wasn't aware that the cothers who posted about the bee sting were also crying over being falsely accused of drugging.
                                  Here's the thread you missed:

                                  http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...light=collapse


                                  I thought you had been reading along since you were the first in this thread to attach names to the players in the bee-sting story that Mandarino had not mentioned.

                                  In any case:

                                  One of the big themes was the practice of having a groom or other non-principal employee sign as the trainer. (The fear/suspicion was that trainers who do drug figure out a way to have someone else take the fall while the business and trainer can still attend shows). As usual (and is correct or telling), the discussion turned to what the USEF is doing to create effective rules.
                                  The armchair saddler
                                  Politically Pro-Cat

                                  Comment


                                  • #97
                                    http://www.ratemyhorsepro.com/news/j...-farm-llc.aspx

                                    So now you are just a pony mom? Your lawsuits seem to indicate your a professional trainer and multi million dollar business owner?

                                    http://www.ratemyhorsepro.com/equine...efendants.aspx

                                    Comment


                                    • #98
                                      Originally posted by dags View Post
                                      Also, I do not agree in any way, shape, or form that the way to fix the sport is to go through the USOC.
                                      Rest assured they're not overly concerned with her complaint, anyway. In fact, word I've received from multiple USOC employees (who are also friends and/or fellow Reservists) is they laughed. They see threads like these, too.
                                      "IT'S NOT THE MOUNTAIN WE CONQUER, BUT OURSELVES." SIR EDMUND HILLARYMember of the "Someone Special To Me Serves In The Military" Clique

                                      Comment


                                      • #99
                                        Originally posted by amberhill View Post
                                        @horseynjwarrior

                                        What hurts Emma most is your vile, defamatory and racist videos. After the USEF BOD posted them to his Facebook page and Emma learned of them, she texted my 80 year old father who was so upset by her texts that he had chest pains and couldn't breathe and ended up in the hospital for a good period of time. Thankfully, he has recovered fully. I am so glad you took so much time to cause pain to my daughter. If you post racially slurred videos on the Internet I can only imagine what goes on in your home.

                                        @ all

                                        And for the record, I did think I killed Humble at first because the only possible reason for his death was if I had hit the carotid artery. I was beside myself and reacted as any loving owner would. I was not thinking of myself... I was thinking of Humble. I wasn't concerned with anything else but Humble and my daughter. The next day when the pathologist called me to inform me about his diseased lungs I was shocked but in hindsight it made sense. Not that it made Emma nor I feel any better about losing him, but at least we had closure in that regard.

                                        @ all

                                        22 animals have died at competitions last year and the only one focused on is the one that has a necropsy and toxicology performed by one of the top clinics in the nation clearing any wrongdoing. Humble was tested for over 1100 substances. In my opinion, animals are dropping ringside and in schooling areas and BNTs who don't sign entry blanks get away with claiming it was a "bee sting". I am pushing the USEF hard for investigations and/or necropsies to be performed on EVERY animal that dies or drops at a USEF sanctioned competition. I am also pushing hard for due process rights for all USEF members so that another member does not get temporarily suspended without a hearing because of a false protest based on ulterior motives filed against them. If anything comes out of the loss of Humble it should be these two rule changes/additions.

                                        @COTH
                                        Your continued platform for disparagement is obscene. This post is about the pony market and the monopolies in the hunter jumper world and that you even allow such distasteful posts is a telling.
                                        Quoting in case it goes *poof*
                                        Proud member of the Snort and Blow Clique

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                                        • Originally posted by dags View Post
                                          Bolding mine.



                                          Bingo.

                                          In re: to mvp's respectable concerns. I have reasons for not wanting to line up with this person that go beyond Humble and even (gasp) beyond the internet. The latest reason, though, is launching this whole thing in conjunction with trying to get her daughter back a junior year. That shows me exactly what this is all about: Her. Also, I do not agree in any way, shape, or form that the way to fix the sport is to go through the USOC. They are not horse people and their interference has put this sport in a tailspin at least once before. So no, I don't care how deep her pockets are. She does not represent the sport I am looking for and her plan does not jive with my own. I am not jumping on some internet bandwagon, I just vehemently disagree with her, and she's wasting everyone's time.
                                          Fair enough.

                                          But I can appreciate that it takes deeper pockets than mine and perhaps some rabid determination to go after a big, feisty alligator like the USEF.

                                          I don't think that I have to like all of the alligator wrestler's persona to appreciate a spectacular effort that works. I'll be first in line to say thanks and appreciate that they did something I couldn't or wouldn't do.
                                          The armchair saddler
                                          Politically Pro-Cat

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