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Pain or confusion?

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  • #21
    I agree that this looks like a hind end problem more than a front end problem. Although it could also be back, neck, or some kind of neuro issue as others have suggested. I'd probably at least test for EPM and Lyme right away, as those things could progress in the eight weeks you are taking it easy. Other (bony/soft tissue) injuries are not likely to get worse during an eight week break, but those two things could.

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    • #22
      I know how frustrating this can be and I am sorry you are going through this. And not really knowing where the problem is, makes it so much worse.

      If you have the finances or insurance a bone scan on the entire horse would probably give you some direction.

      The tripping, I didn't see it mentioned by anyone else but your footing looks too deep in areas. That is bad on the tendons and can make a horse trip.

      I do agree with others that he has some pain going on.

      Good luck, I sure hope you can figure this out!

      I wanted to add, not to be rude but it seems hard to me to ask a horse for a trot with such long reins.. ? but ? I am not a trainer
      Live in the sunshine.
      Swim in the sea.
      Drink the wild air.

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      • #23
        Originally posted by Donkaloosa View Post
        Looks like he's "trolloping" --- that awful, not a trot, not a canter gait that a lot of WP horses do. To me, it screams pain --- hocks maybe? Stifles? Backend somewhere.
        Also called a Tranter....

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        • Original Poster

          #24
          Originally posted by doublesstable View Post
          I know how frustrating this can be and I am sorry you are going through this. And not really knowing where the problem is, makes it so much worse.

          If you have the finances or insurance a bone scan on the entire horse would probably give you some direction.

          The tripping, I didn't see it mentioned by anyone else but your footing looks too deep in areas. That is bad on the tendons and can make a horse trip.

          I do agree with others that he has some pain going on.

          Good luck, I sure hope you can figure this out!

          I wanted to add, not to be rude but it seems hard to me to ask a horse for a trot with such long reins.. ? but ? I am not a trainer
          You are right about the footing. We recently changed and I'm not a fan as it does indeed seem to be almost non-existent in some areas and deep in others.

          As for the riding, I'm not sure what he was trying to do, I wish I had a video of me riding and him doing it, as I can't tell you what was in his head at the time. I was just happy to finally have a video of my horse doing it! It's the first time I've ever seen him do it from the ground. I've certainly felt him do it plenty (it's oddly comfortable if a little disconcerting). That's the first time that trainer had ever seen him, I started the lesson and couldn't get a trot (surprised me because we hadn't had that issue for about 3 weeks) so he hopped on him to "feel" the problem. Which he said was a back end issue.

          No insurance, and not a lot of $ to throw at him. I mean that's how you end up with a "free" horse! We all know they won't be free in the end.

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          • #25
            Originally posted by hrford View Post
            You are right about the footing. We recently changed and I'm not a fan as it does indeed seem to be almost non-existent in some areas and deep in others.

            As for the riding, I'm not sure what he was trying to do, I wish I had a video of me riding and him doing it, as I can't tell you what was in his head at the time. I was just happy to finally have a video of my horse doing it! It's the first time I've ever seen him do it from the ground. I've certainly felt him do it plenty (it's oddly comfortable if a little disconcerting). That's the first time that trainer had ever seen him, I started the lesson and couldn't get a trot (surprised me because we hadn't had that issue for about 3 weeks) so he hopped on him to "feel" the problem. Which he said was a back end issue.

            No insurance, and not a lot of $ to throw at him. I mean that's how you end up with a "free" horse! We all know they won't be free in the end.
            Yeah, I have had the free horse before I so understand. But remember you keep having vets out to poke and prod watch what you are spending because depending on where you live a bone scan is about 1,500.00 and that can be spent on vet and their diagnostics in a split second.

            Good luck, I sure wish you well with your sweet boy and that you can get to the bottom of this!!
            Live in the sunshine.
            Swim in the sea.
            Drink the wild air.

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            • #26
              I didn't watch the whole video, but will he trot out after cantering? Had one that needed to canter first, trot later. She was very stiff & tight (and probably sore) in the back, but if you just let her canter around a bit before trotting she was fine.
              EHJ | FB | #140 | watch | #insta

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              • Original Poster

                #27
                yes, and I have really awful video later that day of him trotting out. And that's also what the trainer said. Let him canter (stay in half seat) both directions, then ask for the trot after he was warmed up.

                But honestly I'd rather give him more of a break, and solve this then keep pushing and make some sort of issue (whatever the heck it is) worse. I need the person who took this video to come out again and take a video of me riding, when he's actually moving out better, so you can see then too. See if there is still an issue or not. Also keep in mind he still has track feet. We're working on it, but it will probably be another 2 trimmings before his feet have any semblance of a normal shape.

                Just wanted to say thanks for all the input. I love this guy, he's got such a great personality, and he's adorable (at least I think so). I'd really like to keep him for a few years and campaign him, so if that means we have to wait to start and lose this show year. Well I guess we will. But if he's never going to get over the issues, he needs to go before I lose my heart!

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by WARDen View Post
                  I would stop riding him immediately. This imitates exactly what one of my horses did when he had a rear suspensory issue to a T. Have the vet watch him undersaddle both directions then on the lunge and have them do flex tests and palpate for suspensory issues. He could be front foot sore as well. I would be interested to know what the findings are, so please keep us posted!
                  This is the same experience I have had....
                  "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
                  carolprudm

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by hrford View Post
                    Just got back from the vet. To answer some of the threads above:

                    1) I believe that trainer was asking for trot at beginning then just asked for the canter after that, because you can see him go into the canter and stay there.
                    Just had to say it, your horse never "canters" in that video. Ever. He's trantering.
                    Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
                    Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

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                    • #30
                      I feel like a broken record on this issue on COTH lately, but I'm going to toss this out there, just because I wish I would have realized it earlier with my TB.

                      Could he have some kind of muscle myopathy? EPSM/PSSM or RER? Is he really "hard muscled"? Took me/my vets forever to figure this out with my TB, but now am pretty sure that's what his "hind end" problem has been all along (or at least a good part of the problem). He has improved a lot after switching to an EPSM diet with lots of oil.

                      I think this is really underdiagnosed in TBs. People just think they are hot messes/jerks, but they are actually in pain.

                      Anyway, just another thought.

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                      • #31
                        I would second the bone scan. It would help figure out if it's a back issue and maybe point to some areas that need work or to be investigated further.

                        Being okay on the lunge and then reacting/changing when a rider gets on can be an indicator of back problems. Is he sensitive to palpation on his back anywhere, have hard muscles anywhere along his back? Getting a good osteopath/body work vet can really help. I've watched one of the guys at school find some really interesting stuff the past two days.

                        You can also test look for EPSM/RER with some bloodwork but could also just try changing his diet.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          I had a horse do the exact same thing and it was just really weak stifles. He couldn't trot, he would bust out into Tranter instead. We walked and cantered for 2 months to make muscles and then he could trot u/s.

                          It was suprisingly difficult to diagnose, we checked everything else first, including neck and treated for EPM. But in the end, it was just weak stifles.

                          That said, I would take the horse to the best lamness vet in the area. There is something physically wrong with that horse.
                          Unrepentant carb eater

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                          • #33
                            hocks, back, feet, muscle soreness, lack of muscle development.

                            Without ever seeing the horse, of course, I would do limited turn out, do 5 days bute and robaxin. hand walk, as long as feet checked out. Get him a turn out buddy, if not don't let him get bullied, not strong enough to define himself.

                            weekly injections of estrone. hand walk.

                            Have his fecal checked and worm accordingly.

                            Teeth checked.

                            Play with him alot, give him a reason to be happy to see you, that's great medicine!!
                            http://community.webshots.com/user/summitspringsfarm

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                            • #34
                              I second the lameness vet. I did not have my regular vet come out for my horse who would be OK one day and then look off in his hind end for the next few days. The vet I used does mainly lameness issues (no on call work) and mostly show barns. She was expensive and worth it.

                              Also, changed trainer and she used the saddle the old trainer used. New trainer bought a new saddle and had a saddle fitter out for my guy to make sure. No more lameness, sometimes he gets sore but only when worked hard or learning new things.

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                              • #35
                                I think it is soreness and confusion. I agree with above posters that the sloppy riding isn't helping Dealer understand what is wanted of him and he should definitely be allowed to go more forward and round through his back and neck. If he were my horse I would look at blocking his front feet and see if there is soreness there. I would look at getting some overall body work done on him like massage to help him loosen up. If your vet doesn't believe in massage/chiro I would look for a second opinion. I would also check vitamin E levels. Low V-E can show up as body soreness and my vet had me add it to my horse's diet. I definitely would not be jumping this horse for quite some time yet since he does not look honestly in front of your leg and forward and round over his back in the jumping clips on youtube as well. He seems like a real tryer and a lovely horse so I can see why you want the best for him! He hasn't been off the track long so he needs some time to figure out how to use his body properly. Taking the extra time now will pay off in the long run! Good luck and keep us posted. He looks like a good match for you
                                Becky & Red
                                In Loving Memory of Gabriel, 1998-2005 and Raalph, 1977-2013

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                                • #36
                                  After watching some other videos I see a horse in pain for sure. He keeps putting his head down like he is going to throw you a buck. A good warning from him something's not right, he also doesn't always get his feet up well for the jumps. He is all over the place and truthfully very unbalanced and behind your leg to even be jumping him yet IMO. He needs to be in front of you and not running on the forehand and balanced before you start jumping. Also after seeing a few trot strides in some videos after the canter our trot a few steps he seemed off in the trot. Something is going on. I'd also check him for epm,lymes etc. When the vet is out. Balance,not picking up feet, pain, lameness, can all be signs of a neuro issue al well.
                                  Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole

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                                  • #37
                                    I'm going to be honest and I truly hope I don't offend you, but somebody has to say it...

                                    1) Get thee to a better vet NOW
                                    2) Fire that trainer. If your trainer isn't competent to see that something is really freaking wrong (and you have gimpy horse + bad saddle + poor training + god know what), then it's time for a new set of eyes.

                                    I cannot fathom any reputable or knowledgeable trainer thinking a horse going like that required anything other than an immediate vet work-up....not a work-out. Period. Full stop. Do not pass go.
                                    Flip a coin. It's not what side lands that matters, but what side you were hoping for when the coin was still in the air.

                                    You call it boxed wine. I call it carboardeaux.

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                                    • #38
                                      He maybe cinchy, at least try saddling him on the walk before you thrown a bunch of money you don't have at him. I train racehorses , this sometimes fixes a lot of your trouble.
                                      https://www.facebook.com/russellracingstable

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                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by rabicon View Post
                                        He is all over the place and truthfully very unbalanced and behind your leg to even be jumping him yet IMO. He needs to be in front of you and not running on the forehand and balanced before you start jumping. Also after seeing a few trot strides in some videos after the canter our trot a few steps he seemed off in the trot. Something is going on. I'd also check him for epm,lymes etc. When the vet is out. Balance,not picking up feet, pain, lameness, can all be signs of a neuro issue al well.
                                        Agreed. I watched all the videos and was surprised to see this horse was jumping. He looks sore, even in the other video when he's moving out more (but I think he's moving out because he's upset).

                                        and even if that weren't the case, I am surprised to see him jumping at all. He is anxious about the whole process and the rider is not helping AT ALL. If you can't stay with the baby jumps...find someone who can....and don't push him to jump more (why the bigger vertical at all?) when he's clearly saying I have no f***ing clue what I'm suppose to do. Getting stiffed in the mouth, pounded on the back and flanks is not going to help him at all.

                                        FWIW: I watched the video of the other horse as well, and the riding was significantly better although I can't help but want to tell you to SIT UP!. I then thought to myself that maybe you have a back problem that makes it so you can't. You need to be able to manage your own balance (including not setting your hands) before you can assist an unbalanced baby in learning the facts of being a jumping horse. If that is over your skill level, find a trainer to do the hard leg work and you just concentrate on the things you can do.
                                        Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
                                        Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

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                                        • #40
                                          I just got done watching the other videos and am ready to vote - pain! I am no lameness expert, but I see a horse with a LOT of heart, trying to do what you ask, despite what appears to be pain.

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