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PETITION to USEF for harsher penalties. UPDATE POST #59

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  • PETITION to USEF for harsher penalties. UPDATE POST #59

    Hey guys,

    I know there is much cynicism that the USEF will ever make any changes. But we've been talking in circles on this forum for months, and I decided to put my money where my mouth is.

    I made this petition . I hope to get enough signatures to present it either in person at one of the Town Hall Meetings, or to send it to the powers that be if I can't make it.

    I have spoken to a few higher ups, some big name pros in our industry, as well as fellow minions like myself, and the general opinion is that we HAVE to make our grievances known before USEF will do anything.

    If we have enough support, maybe it will persuade the USEF to do something.

    I know some of you will be naysayers, and I completely understand why. But complaining won't change anything. This petition may not either, but at least I'm giving it the old college try.

    When you sign, you can put your USEF number instead of your phone. We must have the USEF numbers or they will discredit the petition as complaints from non-members.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by englishivy; Mar. 12, 2013, 09:16 PM.
    www.englishivyfarms.com
    Hunters, Jumpers, & Welsh Ponies
    All I pay my psychiatrist is the cost of feed and hay, and he'll listen to me any day. ~Author Unknown
  • Original Poster

    #2
    Bump.
    www.englishivyfarms.com
    Hunters, Jumpers, & Welsh Ponies
    All I pay my psychiatrist is the cost of feed and hay, and he'll listen to me any day. ~Author Unknown

    Comment


    • #3
      Too bad non USEF members can't sign.
      “Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.”
      ¯ Oscar Wilde

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        I hate that I am excluding non-members from signing, but I was just thinking that USEF would be all:

        "why should we listen to these people...they aren't even members!"

        or

        "who cares what they think, they don't even pay dues so no lost love there."

        I don't like making those kind of assumptions, but I didn't want any amunition for excuse making as to why they should ignore the petition.

        www.englishivyfarms.com
        Hunters, Jumpers, & Welsh Ponies
        All I pay my psychiatrist is the cost of feed and hay, and he'll listen to me any day. ~Author Unknown

        Comment


        • #5
          I totally understand. Maybe, though, if there was a more even playing field without horses being drugged I would join.

          Good luck with the petition!
          “Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.”
          ¯ Oscar Wilde

          Comment


          • #6
            A question for the OP as I decide whether to sign or not....

            You're asking for harsher penalties for illegal drug use in horses at USEF shows. Are you seeking longer suspensions ? Immediate suspensions ? Loss of membership ?

            Or do you want better enforcement of existing rules, for each discipline ?

            Each discipline has its own drug rules...most prohibit drugs, period. Others permit some dosing, and show management provides sharps containers in the barn area.

            I agree that something needs to be done, so I'd like to know specifically what you want USEF to do before I sign.

            Comment


            • #7
              Well, I signed it, but failed to read the instructions and didn't put my USEF # in for the phone #. Would it help to sign it again correctly or should I just leave it alone?
              The Evil Chem Prof

              Comment


              • #8
                USEF has a set of rules for person responsible ( whoever signs as trainer) and the FEI has a different rule ( rider).
                Which rule are you complaining about?

                And USEF does hold responsible people who are not the actual trainer of the horse. Care Custody and all that. Who do you want to be responsible?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by S A McKee View Post
                  USEF has a set of rules for person responsible ( whoever signs as trainer) and the FEI has a different rule ( rider).
                  Which rule are you complaining about?

                  And USEF does hold responsible people who are not the actual trainer of the horse. Care Custody and all that. Who do you want to be responsible?
                  I vote rider.... It's time they get their heads out of the sand.

                  "Pat the horse; kick yourself" - Carl Hester

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Mardi View Post
                    A question for the OP as I decide whether to sign or not....

                    You're asking for harsher penalties for illegal drug use in horses at USEF shows. Are you seeking longer suspensions ? Immediate suspensions ? Loss of membership ?

                    Or do you want better enforcement of existing rules, for each discipline ?

                    Each discipline has its own drug rules...most prohibit drugs, period. Others permit some dosing, and show management provides sharps containers in the barn area.

                    I agree that something needs to be done, so I'd like to know specifically what you want USEF to do before I sign.

                    I am not so familiar with all the D&M rules, particularly across the other disciplines, that I feel qualified to give specific penalties. I just want it to be that drug violations mean actually penalties, not slaps on the wrist.

                    Illegal drugs obviously should have harsher reprocusions than drugs that are allowed at moderate levels. Repeat offenders should get have greater fines. Maybe we fix the "trainer" loop hole. I don't know the specifics. But I do feel that if we did a petition stating exact penalties, I think we'd isolate support for it to the few that 100% agree with those sanctions, making it less influencial. This petition is that the USEF needs to address and make some changes to their current policy.

                    If you (or anyone else) have specific changes you think would be beneficial, I would be glad to include them when I present the petition. This is more about a "wake up we want change", the specifics will have to be hashed out once the USEF gets off their rear.

                    Originally posted by Peggy View Post
                    Well, I signed it, but failed to read the instructions and didn't put my USEF # in for the phone #. Would it help to sign it again correctly or should I just leave it alone?
                    I would leave it with your one signature. I can always let them know we have members whose numbers were accidentally omitted, and we can get them if necessary.

                    Originally posted by S A McKee View Post
                    USEF has a set of rules for person responsible ( whoever signs as trainer) and the FEI has a different rule ( rider).
                    Which rule are you complaining about?

                    And USEF does hold responsible people who are not the actual trainer of the horse. Care Custody and all that. Who do you want to be responsible?
                    I am not talking about FEI shows, only USEF ones. I agree that the "trainer" loop hole needs to be corrected, but that is probably a different amendment than the current rules being minimally enforced or having any consequences.

                    Originally posted by Angelico View Post
                    I vote rider.... It's time they get their heads out of the sand.
                    Thank you!
                    www.englishivyfarms.com
                    Hunters, Jumpers, & Welsh Ponies
                    All I pay my psychiatrist is the cost of feed and hay, and he'll listen to me any day. ~Author Unknown

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Angelico View Post
                      I vote rider.... It's time they get their heads out of the sand.
                      What about kids, especially little ones? And then would you have a cut off where a 14 year old would be fined and suspended because "they should know" while a 13 year old would not? What about catch riders that do not have care custody and control or short term leasers? What about owners who pay for it whether they know it or it gets hidden in creative billing?

                      The way to change exsisting policies is to initiate rule change proposals in the specific discipline...and no, they are not going to consider suggestions from non members who very rarely or never show at their shows. No sporting club or organization does that.

                      USEF should be ashamed of itself for sure but members have to be the ones to communicate their feelings..after all, we pay for it.
                      When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                      The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Angelico View Post
                        I vote rider.... It's time they get their heads out of the sand.
                        I would love to see riders taking more responsibility, but it's not quite that black and white.

                        What about kids?

                        What about catch rides? Riders hop on all the time last minute for a variety of reasons and may not have had any prior connection with the horse at all. I myself have hopped on to do a warm-up trip as a favor to another trainer friend who was preggers and had never seen the horse before, much less ridden or been responsible for its care.

                        What about when multiple riders are riding at the show? Who gets the blame?

                        The reason it works with FEI rules is because the rider is almost always also directly involved with the horse's care. There aren't the catch rides and situations found at the US USEF shows that make this considerably more difficult to navigate.

                        I completely agree we need more people taking responsibility. But it's just not so simple in determining who should be at fault because it may be the owner, the trainer, the rider, the coach, or the groom, responsible for horse's meds.


                        OP, kudos to you for getting the ball rolling with some action. And if I can be of any assistance at all, let me know.
                        It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. (Aristotle)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Not familiar with the entry forms for usef competitions, but does a parent not have to sign for anyone under the age of 18. Here in Canada that is how it is. So basically at that point the guardian is responsible.
                          www.tayvalleyfarm.com
                          My other home.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by texan View Post
                            Not familiar with the entry forms for usef competitions, but does a parent not have to sign for anyone under the age of 18. Here in Canada that is how it is. So basically at that point the guardian is responsible.
                            Of course, stateside too...but they can't be held at fault as the rider so get into a real grey area if you want to propose the rider take the punishment.

                            Often said IMO the owner, who pays for it all including the "meds" and allows the trainer to stay in business need to bear a bigger part of the punishment and no groom is going to sign as owner and pay those bills.
                            When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                            The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by findeight View Post
                              Often said IMO the owner, who pays for it all including the "meds" and allows the trainer to stay in business need to bear a bigger part of the punishment and no groom is going to sign as owner and pay those bills.
                              This would have a lot of weight that could be very helpful. If the horse fails a test, the owner is likely to be quite unhappy with the trainer, and may be inclined to find a new program or at the very least become more educated and personally invested in the care of the horse.

                              Right now, the trainer is fairly autonomous. It's quite easy to hide the charges and for the owner/rider to never know. However, if the owner became responsible, you can bet they would be "in the know" or not show! And if the trainer tried to pull a fast one, they're going to be out of clients before too long!

                              That could work.
                              It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. (Aristotle)

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                The petition seems like a start to me, I signed it. But I didn't see the part about putting my USEF number, oops, can I change that?
                                ******
                                "A good horse and a good rider are only so in mutual trust."
                                -H.M.E.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by findeight View Post
                                  Often said IMO the owner, who pays for it all including the "meds" and allows the trainer to stay in business need to bear a bigger part of the punishment and no groom is going to sign as owner and pay those bills.
                                  But many owners do not have any control over the care of the horse and certainly aren't feeding it.
                                  Not sure it is reasonable to expect an owner who is not the rider and simply sees the horse at a show to take responsibity. It's not like their training bill will include a line item for illegal drugs or over the limit meds.

                                  And if you let the trainer off the hook and pin it all on the owner there is no incentive for the trainer to follow the rules.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Then the owner needs to get more involved in showing legally instead of funding the cheaters. SOMEBODY has to be held responsible if this is going to stop and by more then a wrist slap...heck, the trainer can get a magazine cover for 3 times in a season and still collect their fees from those owners.

                                    The crazy train has to stop somewhere. I vote for whoever pays for it..make the penalty sting more, alot more, and most will stop using the more notorious druggies who stay in business thru intimidation.
                                    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                                    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by S A McKee View Post
                                      But many owners do not have any control over the care of the horse and certainly aren't feeding it.
                                      Not sure it is reasonable to expect an owner who is not the rider and simply sees the horse at a show to take responsibity. It's not like their training bill will include a line item for illegal drugs or over the limit meds.

                                      And if you let the trainer off the hook and pin it all on the owner there is no incentive for the trainer to follow the rules.

                                      I think the owner is an excellent choice. Not having care, custody or control should not absolve one from being the ultimate person responsible for the well being of their own horse. The owner decides who is going to train their horse. The trainer also has a good bit of incentive. At the very least a set down owner, and their horses, can't show. At the worst, the trainer has lost a customer and everyone will know why.
                                      *****
                                      You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by S A McKee View Post
                                        But many owners do not have any control over the care of the horse and certainly aren't feeding it.
                                        Not sure it is reasonable to expect an owner who is not the rider and simply sees the horse at a show to take responsibity. It's not like their training bill will include a line item for illegal drugs or over the limit meds.

                                        And if you let the trainer off the hook and pin it all on the owner there is no incentive for the trainer to follow the rules.
                                        Yes but who brings the money to the sport? Primarily the owners. Money talks. Put higher penalties on the owners even if they aren't within 1000 miles of the show. The owners won't stay long with a trainer who gets them repeated sanctions. Maybe the owners putting pressure on the trainers will help the situation. Bottom line - if it's your horse, it's your responsibility.

                                        Comment

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