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Am I nuts, or is this trainer just the new normal?

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  • #41
    Originally posted by Tha Ridge View Post
    Really? So a 20-something-year-old lesson horse who enjoys his job can't get a little bit of bute every day? Come on, it's not so black and white.
    Every day? No. Unless he's also getting anti-ulcer meds. (And no, I don't take painkillers unless it's acute pain, not chronic, AND it's past the point I can tolerate. If I'm in constant nagging pain I need to change my routine. Same goes for horses.)

    But bute once in a while for a horse who tweaked something or is a little stiff one morning, yes. I wonder, though, does the OP mean the horses are Aced, getting Dex for off-label reasons, etc. to quiet them down for lessons. That would be what I'd think if I heard doping for lesson horses.

    In any case, move the kid, that trainer sounds like an accident waiting to happen.
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    • Original Poster

      #42
      Originally posted by Tamara in TN View Post
      I wanted to tell you first that I enjoy reading your blog when I can. As for the barn,before I became a farmers wife,I ran a children's training barn based out of my long time employers barn.There was no real Pony Club presence here and so I did the best I could with the British Pony club manual and we had three days of riding and one full sat of theory in the classroom on the farm.

      As it was also 4H based we had public speaking w.in the group as well as guest lectures.15 hardcore kids and about 20 good horses(some farm owned but others leased to us by the boarders who were delighted to see "their baby" carrying around someone else's "baby")
      it was truly the happiest time of my life before being married.
      If only I could find my friends someone like you, Tamara! What kid wouldn't love a set-up like that?
      Dreadful Acres: the chronicle of my extraordinary unsuitability to country life

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      • #43
        Regardless of anything else if mom wakes up dreading lesson day and her gut is telling her it is not good then that is good enough reason to move. Gut feelings about this sort of stuff tend to be pretty good. If something happened and her daughter was injured (which can happen in even the best of situations) she will tear herself apart with guilt.

        Best if she checks out other places and then makes a move and claims that it works out better for her commute, her schedule her whatever. No need to burn a bridge, just nod, smile and move on.

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        • #44
          I second the idea of checking out some of the other barns and watching a few lessons . . . and how the kids ride.

          Certainly where this kid is at is an accident waiting to happen.

          Regularly dosing a horse with ACE or Dex is not good either, but may be safer for the kid . What a choice!

          Keeping a horse on anti-inflammatories is not the end of the world. Sure, bute is hard on the stomach but many horses do just fine on Previcox which is easier on them. A friend of mine is a vet and when her old mare was getting creaky, she was on Previcox for several months to make her more comfortable (she was not being ridden at that time).

          I have a hard time to believe that barns are Acing horses every day.
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          • #45
            The phrase "Big Show Barn" and regularly uses ace does not compute in my world. Either we have a different definition of a big show barn or the USEF uses a different drug test in your part of the world.

            But to clarify, in my world a "Big Show Barn" is a barn that regularly competes at the recognized level and would find it challenging to regularly use ace and not find their names splashed all over our favorite link on the USEF website.

            But it does sound like a) you were talking about a barn instead of all the barns, and b) the information was "confirmed" by the trainer with the unsafe horses/lesson program, so that strikes me as perhaps not the most complete sourcing. I still think your friend's best bet is to go out and watch several lesson programs, talk to people and educate herself on what to look for.
            Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

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            • #46
              Originally posted by Snowfox View Post
              No lesson horse should be drugged! Period. THIS is what is wrong with our sport!
              Doesn't this depend on whether we're talking mood-altering DRUGS or, perhaps, bute to keep a safe, sane, senior citizen comfortable?
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              • #47
                Well absolute statements are absolutely much more fun, even if they absolutely make the author look absolutely foolish most of the time.

                I for one am firmly in the camp of never drugging a lesson horse. I think this could save so much money on antibiotics, pergolide, thyroid meds, lyme disease treatment, gastrogard, joint medications, sedation for surgical and dental procedures and so on. Because that is absolutely what an absolute statement includes.
                Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

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                • #48
                  Originally posted by The Crone of Cottonmouth County View Post
                  If only I could find my friends someone like you, Tamara! What kid wouldn't love a set-up like that?
                  well sometimes there were tears,however, we did well in the state shows (not that we really cared about showing) and a few stayed on in horses after they were grown...that was the best reward for me

                  tamara
                  Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
                  I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.

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                  • Original Poster

                    #49
                    Originally posted by DMK View Post
                    The phrase "Big Show Barn" and regularly uses ace does not compute in my world. Either we have a different definition of a big show barn or the USEF uses a different drug test in your part of the world.

                    But to clarify, in my world a "Big Show Barn" is a barn that regularly competes at the recognized level and would find it challenging to regularly use ace and not find their names splashed all over our favorite link on the USEF website.

                    But it does sound like a) you were talking about a barn instead of all the barns, and b) the information was "confirmed" by the trainer with the unsafe horses/lesson program, so that strikes me as perhaps not the most complete sourcing. I still think your friend's best bet is to go out and watch several lesson programs, talk to people and educate herself on what to look for.
                    Actually, the cagey ace confession was obtained from one of the instructors at the big barn, and was confirmed by one of the mothers who also rides there. She got bucked off, and apparently was pissed off when she found out that her horse hadn't been given his usual dose of ace that day. Yoips!

                    I agree completely with the suggestion that my friend renew her search for a more advantageous situation. I've forwarded this thread to her. Thanks, everyone!
                    Dreadful Acres: the chronicle of my extraordinary unsuitability to country life

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                    • #50
                      I think your friend should trust her instincts--she can obviously tell this place is not safe! Time for a new barn pronto!!

                      I actually grew up riding at a barn like this from age 7-13. Half the school horses were completely unsuitable as school horses--I got thrown more times than is really necessary for learning and I distinctly remember more than one stampede in my lessons (yes, stampede). I rode buckers and bolters, and still have a large scar on my arm from a horse who took a chunk out of it with his teeth because I tugged on his halter to stop him from dragging me to eat grass. I wish my parents had pulled me from that program and put me at another barn. I learned so little, got hurt, and got turned off showing for more than a decade because the first real show the trainer took us to when I was 11 or so was a horrible embarrassing experience.

                      When I started leasing a friend's horse and riding with her trainer at age 17, I didn't know what a 20 metre circle was and had developed some terrible habits (piano hands, throwing my reins away over jumps, leaning heavily to the right).

                      Do this kid a favor and get her lessons with a skilled trainer on a safe pony before she gets hurt or permanently turned off horses!

                      Just because someone is a good rider does not mean they are a skilled teacher or that they have the welfare of their students at heart.

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                      • #51
                        I'm sorry I don't believe any barn should daily give ace so kids can ride. I don't care the reasons. I don't care if Susie is just beg and we want to make sure she is doublely woubley safe. If you do not have a pony or horse that can teach that type of lesson then you should not be giving them! Riding with ace is dangerous in itself, even if it's not a huge dose. There is a reason the are not as fast or spooky, because of the drugs slowing them down and you think that is safe to put a beginner on a horse that may could trip and the kid falls over it's head? It's not appropriate. The only reason to ride with ace is an experienced rider bringing a stalled up horse back into slow work if the horse is a hot head. Horses are dangerous creatures and have a mind of their own. Shouldn't trainers be teaching this to students then doping the lesson horse so everyone thinks horses are so easy and amazing. I find it hard to believe also that they do it for insurance. I don't know if insurance would be worse on pricing if susie got dumped in the canter and broke her arm or if Susies horse fell and broke her arm and mommy says well horses was on ace.
                        Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole

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                        • #52
                          Originally posted by SnicklefritzG View Post
                          get a new trainer. now.

                          "Meanwhile instructor stood in the middle of the arena in flipflops, checking her texts every 5 minutes."

                          I would be DONE with her just on that basis. Everything else just confirms it.
                          The part in quotes would have ended it for me, in itself. The lack of diagonals, the poor position, the unsuitable mount, the lack of supervision, is just frosting on the cake. Waaay too much frosting!!!!!
                          Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.

                          Remember the horse does all the work, we just sit there and look pretty.

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                          • #53
                            Originally posted by DMK View Post
                            The phrase "Big Show Barn" and regularly uses ace does not compute in my world. Either we have a different definition of a big show barn or the USEF uses a different drug test in your part of the world.

                            But to clarify, in my world a "Big Show Barn" is a barn that regularly competes at the recognized level and would find it challenging to regularly use ace and not find their names splashed all over our favorite link on the USEF website.

                            .
                            I have to say, I know some barns around here with basically two sets of horses and students – there are the horses and riders going to the A shows, and then they have a set of schoolies, that the new riders just starting out lesson on. The schoolies do not go to the A shows – the beginner riders will move up to a lease, or purchase their own horse once they are ready to show at that level.

                            That said – these barns do not ace their schoolies as far as I am aware! But there are barns that show at the A level – and have schoolies that stay at home / do local C shows.
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                            • #54
                              My daughter is in a lesson barn, and I watch all the lessons while I am there, sometimes including other kids' lessons. What can I say, apparently I am so bitten by the horse bug that even today an up-down lesson with kids I don't know enthralls me.

                              The instructor checking texts during a lesson would be a total dealbreaker for me.

                              The school we are at is a long established, pony-club sort of operation. The instructor is older (as in, not freshly graduated from juniors) and very sharp. The horses know their jobs and most have been in the school for a long time. Even so, sometimes things can go wrong in a hurry and it's essential that she give her lesson her full attention. (She does.)

                              The lack of progress doesn't bother me that much... some kids don't get it as quickly as others... though different/better instruction is often warranted if progress isn't happening. Overmounting can happen occasionally - the horse has a funky day, the horse and kid don't click - but it sounds far more pernicious than that. But the overall picture is not good. Safety is #1 and that is clearly neglected here.

                              There's someone out there with a quiet horse that can teach her, even if it's not a riding school per se. Thanks for looking out for the daughter and your friend.
                              If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

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                              • #55
                                The "functional" aspects of what constitutes a "teacher/trainer" have a pretty wide latitude among individuals claiming the title.

                                It can sometimes be hard for the novice horse person or parent to discern the difference.

                                I recommend that the novice horse person or parent get the Pony Club Manual "Basics for beginners" and give it a read. If one finds that those fundamental tenants of pony club safety are not being followed, then one might think about seeking a teacher who does follow them.

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                                • #56
                                  I have read this thread with interest, and I agree with everyone that lots of warning bells have sounded about the situation the OP described, and her friend needs to start looking for a new place for her child to take lessons.

                                  As far as acing school horses is concerned, I have to say that if a horse needs ace to be "safe," I don't think it should be a school horse. No horse is 100% safe of course--they are living animals after all, not robots--but a school horse should not require ace for beginner lessons.
                                  I heard a neigh. Oh, such a brisk and melodious neigh as that was! My very heart leaped with delight at the sound. --Nathaniel Hawthorne

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                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by SnicklefritzG View Post
                                    get a new trainer. now.

                                    "Meanwhile instructor stood in the middle of the arena in flipflops, checking her texts every 5 minutes."

                                    I would be DONE with her just on that basis. Everything else just confirms it.
                                    Hey, I think I trained with this trainer at one point (okay, not really this exact trainer, but one that did the same thing). I was more advanced than your friends daughter but, in my time with that trainer, I ended up cracking my tail bone, spraining both knees, messing up my neck, having a huge contusion above one of my knees that still hasn't healed and losing all my confidence. And that doesn't come close to addressing general dread I developed before every lesson.

                                    Inattentive trainers, particularly with beginners, can really do a lot of damage.

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                                    • #58
                                      I guess I'm just throwing this out here for the kid, but it seems to me that a trainer that has no real interest in training and is only there to text doesn't really care. You said this kid is horse crazy and if this kid continues to have bad lessons, or god forbid, has an accident, because of said lazy ass trainer that passion might be knocked out of her. I'd tell her mom to go with her gut and find a new lesson barn, where she can really progress. Natural talent or no, after 2 years your right there should be more progress than what you are describing and having a young kid going over cross rails with no kind of seat and landing on a ponies neck is an invitation for disaster.

                                      When you have a kid that loves horses so much and a mother that so obviously cares, and with ANY RIDER you want the basics: Safety, attentiveness, and a FUN and educational environment and it seems to me from your original post that none of those basics are being met at all. Shop around, take the mom and the little girl with you and help them make a decision, maybe the mother doesn't know exactly what to look for but she seems to have a damn good idea

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                                      • #59
                                        I think it depends on the facility.. I've ridden at larger lesson barns where there are group lessons so less individual attention, and the instructors are part-time basically earning extra $. I remember when I was starting back into riding my lessons would seem to include 2 horses that no one ever wanted to ride - the one that would never ever strike up a canter or the one that took that time to become a runaway. Its sad because this kid might be absolutely horse crazy but this particular lesson program seems to discourage rather than encourage the kid's riding. The fact that the instructor was busy texting during the lesson is a no-no.. especially given the age and experience of the child. My suggestion to op is to tell her friend her concerns - as many parents don't have a base of comparison for lessons; explain to her your concerns - texting, flip flops, inappropriate mount and let her know that's really not the best environment...

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                                        • #60
                                          Since you are in Texas...and you describe your friend's child as not so athletically inclined, but super horsey...perhaps a western barn would be a good option? There are some top, top AQHA people in Texas that could perhaps find her a new niche that could get her riding in a safe, confident manner...and even perhaps showing, if that is in the cards for her. She can always take up fence work later, but perhaps a little more saddle and a little less speed would help her in this case?

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