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Update on Hunter judging perameters at WEF.

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  • #61
    I really do not agree that it is in the hands of the judge to decide which horses are drugged and which aren't. This lies with the drug testers and the entire drug testing program.

    My horse is naturally quiet. I never lunge her. I rarely have to take her out for a morning hack before I show. I have never given her a calming supplement, magnesium, dex, or whatever else the drug of choice is these days. She gets Legend once at the one 2-week horse show that I attend yearly.

    If I step into the ring on Saturday after a long week of showing in the heat and my horse looks a bit less lively than one that might be a bit more naturally up, am I going to get pegged as one of those who are "drugging"? My horse doesn't play much after the fences. She rarely swishes her tail. She's bucked ONCE in her life. Who is the judge, who doesn't know me from a hole in the ground to decide whether or not my horse is drugged? That should be left completely up to the drug testing program and should have nothing to do with guesswork, gossip and blaming.

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    • #62
      No, I don't think judges should be made into the Drug Police. But I am curious about the folks who where their trainer's hat one week and their judge's hat the next. As trainers, they can't be in the dark about what kind of drugging goes on since during that week, they are trying their best to produce that winning hunter picture.

      Along these lines, anyone know what the judging world has said or done about Julie Winkel's call for changing judging standards?
      The armchair saddler
      Politically Pro-Cat

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      • #63
        I think it's funny when riders show with a BNT who drugs their horse and doesn't tell them, or at least "explain" what it is expected, and the rider misses like crazy because they are riding a "different" horse

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by S A McKee View Post
          Of course you seem unable to read.
          If you will be kind enough to revisit post # 55 you will see that I posted exactly the same quote as you ( minus the bolding).
          She did NOT say 'little bute' OR banamine.
          Be as indignant as you'd like, but Midge is correct on how that sentence reads. It reads a little bute, or a little banamine, or a little robaxin. Seems like you just want to pick a fight or be the right one (as you often do).

          I think you understood the sentence just fine, as you questioned the modifier "little" in reference to Robaxin.

          And of course, you are correct in regards to stacked NSAIDS....
          Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
          Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

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          • #65
            Originally posted by PonyPenny View Post
            Why not test the winners? Is other sports, winning athletes are tested. Testing the winners would either disclose drugging or put to rest all the accusations. Pretty soon there will be a test for higher than normal magnesium levels.
            I'm all for testing winners! I was just offering a more cost-effective alternative since I know one of the complaints about increased drug testing is increased cost.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by goodlife View Post
              I really do not agree that it is in the hands of the judge to decide which horses are drugged and which aren't. This lies with the drug testers and the entire drug testing program.

              My horse is naturally quiet. I never lunge her. I rarely have to take her out for a morning hack before I show. I have never given her a calming supplement, magnesium, dex, or whatever else the drug of choice is these days. She gets Legend once at the one 2-week horse show that I attend yearly.

              If I step into the ring on Saturday after a long week of showing in the heat and my horse looks a bit less lively than one that might be a bit more naturally up, am I going to get pegged as one of those who are "drugging"? My horse doesn't play much after the fences. She rarely swishes her tail. She's bucked ONCE in her life. Who is the judge, who doesn't know me from a hole in the ground to decide whether or not my horse is drugged? That should be left completely up to the drug testing program and should have nothing to do with guesswork, gossip and blaming.
              Not a hunter rider, so take this with a grain of salt, but if your horse is so quiet that she looks drugged, she shouldn't be winning either in any endeavor that attempts to call itself a sport.
              My problem with hunters isn't just that it takes drugging or lunging to death to get that semi-comatose round for many horses. My problem is that I cannot conceive of a sport where that comatose round should be the ideal, even if it is achieved naturally by breeding and training, etc.
              I feel similarly about western pleasure. I don't care if someone's horse naturally moves like today's winning western pleasure-it's ugly and unnatural and unathletic looking. Maybe I'm judging a sport I don't know well, but the fact that there are big name trainers and judges who agree makes me feel like I'm not totally out of left field feeling this way.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by NCRider View Post
                Not a hunter rider, so take this with a grain of salt, but if your horse is so quiet that she looks drugged, she shouldn't be winning either in any endeavor that attempts to call itself a sport.
                Hunter rider or not, that was really rude.
                http://www.youtube.com/user/supershorty628
                Proudly blogging for The Chronicle of the Horse!

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                • #68
                  [QUOTE=S A McKee;6873981]Of course you seem unable to read.
                  If you will be kind enough to revisit post # 55 you will see that I posted exactly the same quote as you ( minus the bolding).
                  She did NOT say 'little bute' OR banamine.

                  Regardless, it's a vacation for meds or sedation but I'm sure you knew that ( or at least I hope so ).[/QUOTE

                  You need to take remedial Grammar. OR means one of the mentioned in a string of items. Do you EVER address people without that snide and rude attitude?

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Wow I never though I'd be attacked for using proper grammar on this board. That's a new one
                    Fils Du Reverdy (Revy)- 1993 Selle Francais Gelding
                    My equine soulmate
                    Mischief Managed (Tully)- JC Priceless Jewel 2002 TB Gelding

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Claudius View Post
                      So I read that the rule book was suggesting that judges allow the horses to be horses...
                      The rule change, which eliminates "freshness" as a fault, does not go into effect until Dec 1 2013
                      Last edited by Janet; Mar. 7, 2013, 11:43 AM. Reason: fixed date
                      Janet

                      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

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                      • #71
                        This rule like all they write in publications is bull. Sounds good, and people want to believe it but in reality look what kind of horses they are pinning. Same with the story that they only judge the ride, nothing to do with the trainer at the ingate and whatever past or futures deals.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by supershorty628 View Post
                          Hunter rider or not, that was really rude.
                          Yeah...a bit harsh, considering you haven't actually seen my horse to make such a judgment. Anyway, I didn't say that she was despondent, dead or luggish. She still has a nice expression and goes along pleasantly - that's just her demeanour.

                          I also didn't say that I plod along at 2 miles an hour and dumb down the course. I still carry pace, my horse jumps well and I have a lovely time. Why should a well-moving, well-behaved polite horse that is well suited to its job be penalized?

                          Maybe I was unclear, but the point I was trying to make was that it's nearly impossible to discern between the "prepared" hunter and the well-suited hunter by just watching a round (of course there are the cases of those who clearly look drugged and are dangerously dopey, but those are the exception, I find).

                          I don't want to feel like I need to encourage my horse to toss her head in the corner or flip her head just to show the railbirds that she isn't a victim of the alleged BNTs who are snowing their clients and using cocktails to win.

                          This doesn't need to be a witch-hunt that involves overly suspicious judges and gossip-y people that perpetuate rumors that never seem to have any concrete information. It always seems that someone "heard" that a trainer was using magnesium or some braider saw a suspicious injection being administered, but no one ever seems to be able to corroborate these stories with any evidence.

                          The change needs to come at the level of the NGB and it needs to involve the drug protocols, testing procedures and punishments, not judges and people with too much time on their hands who think that every Legend injection given at 10:00pm must be nefarious and every horse that has a quiet disposition is drugged up to its eyeballs.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            I find it very sad that two posters like Claudius and goodlife wind up divided by the actions of the magnesium junkies. In a fair world you would be the best of friends sharing the journey toward the perfect hunter round on a level playing field. I am 100% behind the good fight that Claudius is battling and I thought her struggles last year to drink the Koolaid were epic, and I am so glad she did not. And I do believe that goodlife is the model for clean sport in hunterland. I hope you guys can stick together to figure out the answer. (Drones?)
                            P.S. Does anyone else but me find the pop-up ad for Perfect Prep, the "Industry Standard," rather ironic?

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              nutmeg, out of curiosity, is it specifically for Perfect Prep or is it for Perfect products? I had an ad for Perfect products a few times ago that had Mclain Ward in it and I honestly didn't think anything of it because (1) Mclain isn't going to be using Perfect Prep and (2) I have a hoof cream made by that company and it is unbelievably nice!

                              They do make stuff other than the Prep goo, which is why I'm asking.
                              http://www.youtube.com/user/supershorty628
                              Proudly blogging for The Chronicle of the Horse!

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                              • #75
                                You could be right, supershorty. It popped up randomly for me during the Bee-sting crisis and I may well have jumped to conclusions. I have VERY strong opinions about Perfect Prep, having been asked to administer it to jumpers who in their right minds would have slatted their riders at the first fence and saved us all a ton of heartache.

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                                • #76
                                  Originally posted by S A McKee View Post
                                  Of course you seem unable to read.
                                  If you will be kind enough to revisit post # 55 you will see that I posted exactly the same quote as you ( minus the bolding).
                                  She did NOT say 'little bute' OR banamine..
                                  I obviously read better than you do,and no, you didn't post the exact same quote. She listed three drugs: bute, banamine OR robaxin. Hint: the comma should have clued you in that there were more than two items in her list.
                                  *****
                                  You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    Originally posted by Perfect10 View Post
                                    So when all the judge sees is the drugged ones, what are they supposed to do? Not pin the whole class?
                                    Tell me how, exactly, a judge is supposed to know by looking?
                                    *****
                                    You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      Originally posted by Rel6 View Post
                                      I'm all for testing winners! I was just offering a more cost-effective alternative since I know one of the complaints about increased drug testing is increased cost.
                                      But the horses who don't win should be equally protected. If trainers are sedating, it might be because they want their incompetent adult to live to write another check. They aren't expecting a win.
                                      *****
                                      You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        Originally posted by leyla25 View Post
                                        This rule like all they write in publications is bull. Sounds good, and people want to believe it but in reality look what kind of horses they are pinning. Same with the story that they only judge the ride, nothing to do with the trainer at the ingate and whatever past or futures deals.
                                        What? All the USEF's rules are "bull"? No one follows any of 'em in practice?

                                        I think that is patently false. For drugging or judging, folks use those as a guideline. There was probably a lot of discussion and politics around modifying the hunter standard to omit freshness as a fault. I think good judges are happy to comply. After all, they are there to keep the sport to the decided-upon standard, not to get idiosyncratic.

                                        Also, most of the folks who went to the trouble of becoming judges and do that long hard job probably like horses and like good training. If they weren't trying to pick a winner from 80 Children's Hunters, I think they wouldn't mind a horse shaking his head in pride after nailing a line. I see a horse do that and while I know it's not correct, I like it when the animal knows he's a rock star at a job I gave him.
                                        The armchair saddler
                                        Politically Pro-Cat

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          Originally posted by Midge View Post
                                          But the horses who don't win should be equally protected. If trainers are sedating, it might be because they want their incompetent adult to live to write another check. They aren't expecting a win.
                                          Many people seem to forget that the drug testing program should protect ALL the horses at the show. Not just the winners. That's the advantage of the random testing approach.

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