• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Update on Hunter judging perameters at WEF.

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #41
    Originally posted by Tha Ridge View Post
    Dex is not forbidden and it will test.
    Using Dex as a calming agent is forbidden. But fortunately for all those hunter trainers out there, it's allowed for other things so testing is useless.

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by dani0303 View Post
      othing major, just a head shake. The announcer kept saying he was "underprepared" and the judges scores reflected it.
      "Underprepared" ain't even a word.... unless you mean it to refer specifically to "not drugged or lunged enough" as opposed to the standard, "unprepared."
      The armchair saddler
      Politically Pro-Cat

      Comment


      • #43
        I think that's exactly what the announcer meant.

        Comment


        • #44
          Originally posted by Perfect10 View Post
          But when all the horses are "prepared," then what exuberance are the judges to reward? Until the horses show that exuberance, the judges will have to judge what is in front of them, regardless of whether exuberance is allowed.
          Meh, this gives the judges a moral "out" for pinning horses as they are. Nothing will ever need to change so long as we have nothing to say to the way judges do their job. Read Julie Winkel on the subject if you don't believe me. Don't forget that most of them were professional horse trainers first. IMO, they know drugged from clean in most horses.
          The armchair saddler
          Politically Pro-Cat

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by mvp View Post
            IMO, they know drugged from clean in most horses.
            I beg to differ.

            The judge has no way to tell if the horse is a natural deadhead, as some posters have described their horses, or one that is made quiet by other means.

            You can only judge what you see in front of you in the ring.

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #46
              MHM I have to disagree with you. My very quiet , slow off the ground, rythymic good ones did not look sluggish and dull. When you see a quality horse that is drugged or surpressed by other means it affects his whole demeanor. He is no longer himself. A very quiet horse is still himself.
              "Over the Hill?? What Hill, Where?? I don't remember any hill!!!" Favorite Tee Shirt

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by mvp View Post
                IMO, they know drugged from clean in most horses.
                I doubt that. They may assume they can but I doubt they can.

                It has been shown here that most people assume that anything that is quiet and easy going must be drugged.

                Originally posted by Claudius View Post
                MHM I have to disagree with you. My very quiet , slow off the ground, rythymic good ones did not look sluggish and dull. When you see a quality horse that is drugged or surpressed by other means it affects his whole demeanor. He is no longer himself. A very quiet horse is still himself.
                Um, so now the judge has to know what 'being himself' is too?

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by ET's Home View Post
                  Claudius - but if you give up now, those drugging to win will have gained the upper hand. Find and train up horses like you had in the past - bring them to shows, have fun and not worrying about competing with the deadheads. If we all keep it up, the norm will be the ones looking alert and interested when they enter the ring.
                  I agree and I'd like those who know better and can afford to have nice horses stay around in our sport and set a better example.

                  But!
                  Originally posted by Claudius View Post
                  I too have had super quiet horses that went on to greatness. Most known were Ancient Line (HOTY) and Holy Smoke, and Sassoon. In my experience, these were unusual horses and worth a fortune. Most horses require more management than the super quiet ones. But they can be managed and produce lovely rounds.I have made many like that.
                  That makes it harder to stay and sadder to leave, right? You knew all those nice horses and how they got to the ring honestly (even if they started out with the genetic goods).

                  I'm torn the same way. I have this fantasy that I'll keep doing what I've always done, buy the right combination of mind-and-body and then have one more nice hunter that requires my usual No Prep. But what if the trainers are right? My old skool ways just.can't.win without the truly extraordinary horse that I can't afford and wouldn't buy even if I did have the dough.... that could send a kid to Harvard, full freight.

                  Quite the existential crisis of getting old, eh?
                  The armchair saddler
                  Politically Pro-Cat

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by MHM View Post
                    The judge has no way to tell if the horse is a natural deadhead, as some posters have described their horses, or one that is made quiet by other means.

                    You can only judge what you see in front of you in the ring.
                    Originally posted by Claudius View Post
                    MHM I have to disagree with you. My very quiet , slow off the ground, rythymic good ones did not look sluggish and dull. When you see a quality horse that is drugged or surpressed by other means it affects his whole demeanor. He is no longer himself. A very quiet horse is still himself.
                    Yabbut, all these armchair judges think that they *can* see bad prep around, or at least they can see some remarkable changes in the average way of going for the modern hunter.

                    I think if you had been around watching Western Pleasure as it headed towards its nadir, you would have seen the same conversations.
                    The armchair saddler
                    Politically Pro-Cat

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #50
                      MVP

                      At least there is one person on here who understands the situation. That is reassuring. So many take one statement and react and overstate their rebuttal so simplisticly that it isn't worth trying to clarify. I want to say to these people.....come here to WEF...come down here and keep your horse on the grounds. Come to your stall at all times of the day. You will see horses being hastily returned to their stall for a timely "touch up".....you will see horses leave their stalls with their heads hanging down, eyes dull , not all, but many.....and then you take your horse out of the stall and he brightens up, looks around....he acts like an aware animal. You owners of genuinely quiet horses.....look at YOUR horse's eyes when he comes to the ring....even a dead head registers interest.
                      Last edited by Claudius; Mar. 6, 2013, 02:21 PM.
                      "Over the Hill?? What Hill, Where?? I don't remember any hill!!!" Favorite Tee Shirt

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        I do not see anyone here saying there are not horses that are drugged. We all know drugging happens.

                        It is the broad sweeping statements like "even the dead head registers interest" that are wrong and that are part of the problem, actually. People assume things that should not be assumed. People (like you) assume that the quiet (bored) horse at the in gate must be drugged.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by trubandloki View Post
                          People (like you) assume that the quiet (bored) horse at the in gate must be drugged.
                          My horse falls asleep at the ingate with his tongue hanging out. And sometimes he got a little slap to wake up before walking in. I'm sure that looked bad to certain people. But he sure got some nice looks when he got in the arena and did well in the JUMPERS, going fast and clean!

                          Also would like to point out that I think part of this issue is tied to just using the word "drugging". There is a HUGE difference between trainers who offer a little ulcer guard + robaxin or a vitamin supplement at a horse show and someone who is using harsh or illegal medications to dangerously cover up behavioral or medical issues in the show ring. Referring to any substance given to horses at shows as "drugging" is confusing and detrimental to the sport.

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by JumpsJumps View Post
                            Also would like to point out that I think part of this issue is tied to just using the word "drugging". There is a HUGE difference between trainers who offer a little ulcer guard + robaxin or a vitamin supplement at a horse show and someone who is using harsh or illegal medications to dangerously cover up behavioral or medical issues in the show ring. Referring to any substance given to horses at shows as "drugging" is confusing and detrimental to the sport.
                            "Drugging" as defined in this thread is using any medication with the intent to alter the horses mood and create a tranquilizing effect. I'm pretty sure no one (or at least not me) is faulting a trainer for giving a horse a little bute, banamine, or robaxin to keep a horse comfortable after a long week of showing.
                            Fils Du Reverdy (Revy)- 1993 Selle Francais Gelding
                            My equine soulmate
                            Mischief Managed (Tully)- JC Priceless Jewel 2002 TB Gelding

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by dani0303 View Post
                              "Drugging" as defined in this thread is using any medication with the intent to alter the horses mood and create a tranquilizing effect. I'm pretty sure no one (or at least not me) is faulting a trainer for giving a horse a little bute, banamine, or robaxin to keep a horse comfortable after a long week of showing.
                              But what you are saying, is STILL drugging. It's altering their performance. Don't get me wrong here, I am ALL FOR the little bit of bute and what not to help them be less stiff- I am a runner, I take two ibuprofen the second I get home from a long run.

                              I think sweeping people with a broad brush is ridiculous. No, not every time you see a horse go into a stall, get an oral/IM/IV injection does that mean the horse is "drugged" with a calming supplement (let's just stick with that type of drug). If you thought that, then well, you probably thought that when I gave my horse electrolytes orally I was drugging them. I could go on. There are so many reasons to not assume every horse is drugged. What about the gelding that just drops when he is relaxed? Mine did. But he wasn't drugged. Yes, it goes on. Yes it sucks and needs to STOP. But, not EVERYONE does it.

                              OP, you are going to have to learn a good amount of people posting on here DO show at WEF and at the big shows. They KNOW what is going on, this is not new news.

                              And for penalizing the brilliance? Let's not penalize it, BUT, let's keep in mind, a FIELD hunter that plays in the field after a fence? Could be dangerous- it could trip, or miss something it would have otherwise seen had it been paying attention. A playful hunter still needs to behave.
                              I see distances. Most times more than one. Sometimes I pick the right one, sometimes I pick the wrong one, and sometimes I close my eyes and let Jesus take the wheel.

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by dani0303 View Post
                                "Drugging" as defined in this thread is using any medication with the intent to alter the horses mood and create a tranquilizing effect. I'm pretty sure no one (or at least not me) is faulting a trainer for giving a horse a little bute, banamine, or robaxin to keep a horse comfortable after a long week of showing.
                                But that's not how USEF defines a drug/medication violation.
                                Stacking of NSAID's can get you a vacation same as a sedative.
                                So a little 'bute, banamine' is not legal. One OR the other !!

                                Define a 'little' robaxin.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by S A McKee View Post
                                  But that's not how USEF defines a drug/medication violation.
                                  Stacking of NSAID's can get you a vacation same as a sedative.
                                  So a little 'bute, banamine' is not legal. One OR the other !!

                                  Define a 'little' robaxin.
                                  Funny how you cut her statement to make it sound like she said 'and'. She said exactly what you did, 'or'. Here, I'll bold for you:

                                  Originally posted by dani0303 View Post
                                  "Drugging" as defined in this thread is using any medication with the intent to alter the horses mood and create a tranquilizing effect. I'm pretty sure no one (or at least not me) is faulting a trainer for giving a horse a little bute, banamine, or robaxin to keep a horse comfortable after a long week of showing.
                                  *****
                                  You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    On the taking them back to the stall thing - my friend had a gelding that if he was cranky while he went around you knew he had to pee and he would not pee anywhere but his stall so more than once he was hustled back to his stall between rounds. Clearly those who assume all horses taken back to their stalls must be getting some mood altering drugs would never believe it was just to take the poor guy on a pee break.

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by mvp View Post
                                      Meh, this gives the judges a moral "out" for pinning horses as they are. Nothing will ever need to change so long as we have nothing to say to the way judges do their job. Read Julie Winkel on the subject if you don't believe me. Don't forget that most of them were professional horse trainers first. IMO, they know drugged from clean in most horses.
                                      So when all the judge sees is the drugged ones, what are they supposed to do? Not pin the whole class?

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by dani0303 View Post
                                        "Drugging" as defined in this thread is using any medication with the intent to alter the horses mood and create a tranquilizing effect. I'm pretty sure no one (or at least not me) is faulting a trainer for giving a horse a little bute, banamine, or robaxin to keep a horse comfortable after a long week of showing.
                                        I've heard time and time again people referring to any substance a horse is given as "drugging" which I think gives the wrong impression to outsiders, can confuse horse owners, and disallows HONEST conversations about the positives and negatives surrounding different supplements/medications. My point being that a medication such as ulcer guard should not be discussed in the same way as something like ace. Drugging has been equated to doping and they are not the same, therefore I think we need to be more conscientious in how we choose to discuss this issue further.

                                        It's worth pointing out that OP began this thread by saying:
                                        Originally posted by Claudius View Post
                                        I had the disappointing experience of keeping my horse on the grounds one night and coming to care for him early in the morning. The conversations overheard about, "how much' and "when" were all around me and I just got disgusted. I kind of gave up at that point. When will our organization put some teeth into the drugging situation???
                                        So, I disagree with you on your definition of how "drugging" has been used in this thread as well as other threads on this forum.

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by Midge View Post
                                          Funny how you cut her statement to make it sound like she said 'and'. She said exactly what you did, 'or'. Here, I'll bold for you:
                                          Of course you seem unable to read.
                                          If you will be kind enough to revisit post # 55 you will see that I posted exactly the same quote as you ( minus the bolding).
                                          She did NOT say 'little bute' OR banamine.

                                          Regardless, it's a vacation for meds or sedation but I'm sure you knew that ( or at least I hope so ).

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X