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Showing under your present trainer as a judge?

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  • Showing under your present trainer as a judge?

    Can people help me out? What is the rule about showing under your trainer, ie, if your present trainer is judging a horse show? Even if there is no rule, which I think there is (but would like clarification on) is it an ethics issue? I do not have a trainer, so it does not effect me, but what is someone asked me to coach them becasue their trainer was judging? it would be unethical for me to do so, and for them to show, right? I would appreciate answers from people who show both rated and unrated, local and USEF. thanks!
    Save a life...be an organ donor! Visit www.Transplantbuddies.org

  • #2
    You cannot show under any person that you have had financial horsey dealings within...oh is it 3 or 6 months these days? And they must excuse themselves from judging you.

    This has been true with every organization rating shows I have done from Arabs to QHs and our beloved USEF/USHJA and a very well known unwritten law at shows operating outside any formal rules.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

    Comment


    • #3
      Definitely not allowed.
      Charlie Brown (1994 bay TB X gelding)
      White Star (2004 grey TB gelding)

      Mystical Moment, 1977-2010.

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        So when it is happening at a local level, even though they are not under usef rules, it is considered cheating? If it is happening on a very regular basis it would be considered wrong? There is a show series that I would like to do (small, unrated but I have a new pony and I have not shown in years a fter taking time off to coach for a while, etc and recovering from some medical issues. This is a good show to get my feet wet again, but I know the regular judge has clients that show there regularly. I am wondering whether to support the series where the management and judge both know this is not acceptable.
        Save a life...be an organ donor! Visit www.Transplantbuddies.org

        Comment


        • #5
          USEF rule book says 30 days.

          Comment


          • #6
            There is a difference between merely knowing the judge, and having financial dealings with him/her. If the horse you are showing is not in training with that judge, or was not purchased recently from that individual then no problem, IMO. When in doubt, consult the rules of the governing body of whatever discipline or local horse show association is involved.
            Jeanie
            RIP Sasha, best dog ever, pictured shortly before she died, Death either by euthanasia or natural causes is only the end of the animal inhabiting its body; I believe the spirit lives on.

            Comment


            • #7
              Does it fall under the rules of a local group, such as MHC? Your best bet would be to approach show management with the issue and see what they say. If the show is just a local show that is unaffiliated with any group, they may not have rules saying it is not allowed. It would only be cheating if the rules say it is not allowed. Many small shows do not have particular rules on issues like this..that is the advantage of showing at a USEF show.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Silk View Post
                ...but I know the regular judge has clients that show there regularly. I am wondering whether to support the series where the management and judge both know this is not acceptable...
                Really, you need to ask?

                Long as you are SURE the judge is actually and openly currently taking money from training those s/he judging? Spend your money elsewhere. It may not be all about winning but you should not support outright cheating by giving them your entry fees.

                Written or not, taking money for judging those you also train is cheating and a most unfair advantage for your clients over any entrants not currently paying you, the judge, to be their trainer too.

                Morals and ethics do not have to be specifically spelled out or be ignored.
                When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Silk View Post
                  So when it is happening at a local level, even though they are not under usef rules, it is considered cheating? If it is happening on a very regular basis it would be considered wrong? There is a show series that I would like to do (small, unrated but I have a new pony and I have not shown in years a fter taking time off to coach for a while, etc and recovering from some medical issues. This is a good show to get my feet wet again, but I know the regular judge has clients that show there regularly. I am wondering whether to support the series where the management and judge both know this is not acceptable.
                  The two key points here are: 1. judge has clients in the show; and 2. it is a good show for you to get your feet wet. Ethically speaking, IMO, I would be reluctant to support a show that condones this behavior. However, it is a local show and I'm sure people are going there to have fun and gain the experience. I guess this is a matter of conscious.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    If you're just going because you want a chance to go to the venue and get your pony in the ring and do some classes, then just go and have fun.

                    If you're thinking this is a serious place to be judged, then don't.

                    Possibly this is just a playday kind of show and it's set up to have the trappings of a show, but it's really just for practice and the judge is the trainer because she's the only one available/competent to act as judge. On the other hand, perhaps this is a nefarious scheme to make the trainer's riders look better by getting them "wins."

                    It's pretty much impossible for someone to judge a horse/rider they know well from teaching for a long time fairly... you just have much more information about them than the other riders.
                    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      obviously the show knows the judge has their clients there so management doesn't seem to mind. On the one had the judge's clients may have an unfair advantage in that they might not be judged fairly either - some trainers might judge their clients more harshly because they know them, it's not necessarily a pass to a first place. I would also surmise that if this particular show series has a fairly good turnout knowing that the judge & her clients show there too - then the other competitors don't seem to mind. Also the judge could turn her clients over to another trainer for a period of time and it's not publicized. Go and see what it's like.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        In most unrated shows in my old area, it was not allowed. It looks very unprofessional of the judge and the clients if they do not recuse themselves. Bad form.

                        One show had a "learner judge" for the classes with the clients.
                        Come to the dark side, we have cookies

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Originally posted by findeight View Post
                          Really, you need to ask?

                          Long as you are SURE the judge is actually and openly currently taking money from training those s/he judging? Spend your money elsewhere. It may not be all about winning but you should not support outright cheating by giving them your entry fees.

                          Written or not, taking money for judging those you also train is cheating and a most unfair advantage for your clients over any entrants not currently paying you, the judge, to be their trainer too.

                          Morals and ethics do not have to be specifically spelled out or be ignored.
                          Thank you Findeight...you are always a voice of reason (even if I dont want to hear it).
                          Save a life...be an organ donor! Visit www.Transplantbuddies.org

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I think it depends on what you want to get out of the show. If the show is close by, inexpensive, and you have a horse that needs the miles in an environment with all the trappings, then it might be worth it. If you are looking to get points for awards on a local circuit and are taking this seriously, then I would find another venue.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Here is the rule.

                              GR1304.22. When you are officiating as a Judge in the Hunter or Hunter Seat Equitation
                              divisions, none of the following may compete as a trainer, coach, competitor, rider,
                              owner, handler, lessor or lessee in either the Hunter or the Hunter Seat Equitation
                              divisions at that competition, unless the relationship is terminated, or the transaction
                              is completed, at least 30 days prior to the competition
                              :
                              a. A member of your family.
                              b. A member of your household or housemate.
                              c. A cohabitant, companion, or domestic partner.
                              d. An employee.
                              e. A client.
                              f. Your trainer.
                              g. A client of your trainer.
                              h. An entity that employs you or a member of your family, which includes individuals,
                              corporations, partnerships, foundations, trusts, non-profit organizations,
                              and any shareholder owning five or more percent of the stock, if any.
                              i. A horse trained or shown by you or by a member of your family.
                              j. A horse sold by you or by your employer.
                              k. A person for whom you have or are scheduled to receive any remuneration
                              involving a horse sale or purchase (unless at public auction), lease or board (stud
                              fees, retiree or broodmare board excluded).
                              Janet

                              chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Janet View Post
                                Here is the rule.
                                Very unlikely you would go to a show that your trainer is judging. That is way off the chart as ethical. I show in two parts of the US with two different trainers, one is a judge.
                                That trainer told me if I was at a show where she is judging to notify the Steward and the trainer can be sent to a ring I wasn't showing in. If my trainer got called to a show I was at as a last minute fill in, the same applies. But if it was a small show where one hunter ring is being used, then she told me to notify the Steward and he/she would mark that in their book on the show. If the trainer is acting in a Steward position, then everything is okay.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by FAW View Post
                                  If the trainer is acting in a Steward position, then everything is okay.
                                  On the contrary
                                  25. When you are officiating as a Category 1 (C1) Steward at a competition:
                                  a. You may not be a competitor, coach, rider, handler, lessor, lessee, trainer, or
                                  manager at the same competition.
                                  b. You cannot own or operate any business (i.e. tack shop, braiding business, etc.)
                                  at the same competition.
                                  c. None of the following may compete as a trainer, coach, competitor, rider, owner,
                                  handler, lessor or lessee at that competition, unless the relationship is terminated
                                  at least 30 days prior to the competition:

                                  1. A member of your family.
                                  2. A member of your household or housemate.
                                  3. A cohabitant, companion, or domestic partner.
                                  4. An employee.
                                  5. A client.
                                  6. Your trainer.
                                  7. A client of your trainer.
                                  8. An entity that employs you or a member of your family, which includes individuals,
                                  corporations, partnerships, foundations, trusts, non-profit organizations,
                                  and any shareholder owning five or more percent of the stock, if any.
                                  9. A horse trained by you or by a member of your family.
                                  10. A horse sold by you or by your employer.
                                  11. A person for whom you have or are scheduled to receive any remuneration
                                  involving a horse sale, purchase, (unless at public auction), lease, or board (stud
                                  fees, retiree or broodmare board excluded).
                                  Last edited by Janet; Mar. 3, 2013, 10:22 PM.
                                  Janet

                                  chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    My uncle is a judge and my cousin has judged, as well as I have on local levels on occasion. The rule with us is don't even enter a class a family member is judging if you expect to place. It won't happen. You can have the best horse out there, and you'll get the gate, not to mention getting blessed out when it is all over for putting him/her/me in that position. The mere appearance of wrong doing is enough to be a problem, even if there is nothing going on. The same goes for horses in our care/custody/control. We don't place them if there are more horses than places.
                                    Like my uncle told my oldest sister at 6-I don't care if you are on the best horse in the class, if I am judging, you don't place. He got chewed royally by a person after giving her the gate for not placing her. This man had a whole new respect for my uncle when he was told that Dotty was his neice, and she knew the deal.

                                    I had a case wehre a pony I had out on trial entered a class I was judging unbeknownst to me until I saw him in the ring, and honestly, in my head under another judge, I would've placed him 1st or 2nd. I wound up giving him 3rd out of a class of 3. Thankfully, he threw a fit in the line up,so I didn't get any questioning after the fact.

                                    I flat out don't believe that you can be completely fair when judging something you have or previously have had a vested interest in, and to be in that position in untenable. Sometimes it is unavoidable such as when you trained a horse, then sold it 3-6 months ago. It still looks fishy, though it most likely is not.

                                    ETA: we are not in h/j world or dressage
                                    Last edited by Gnalli; Mar. 3, 2013, 09:40 PM. Reason: clarification
                                    http://community.webshots.com/album/548368465RfewoU[/url]

                                    She may not have changed the stars from their courses, but she loved a good man, and she rode good horses….author unknown

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      My trainer had to step in at the last minute to judge a very large "schooling show" here locally. His clients had already entered the show, obviously not expecting the judge to be incapacitated. So...management and the other trainers arranged for another trainer to step in and judge (he was also a rated judge, but had many more clients in attendance) to judge the other's clients. It was a bit of a dance, but worked out to everyone's satisfaction. I know my trainer (also a judge) won't allow his clients to show when he is judging.
                                      Proud member of the "Don't rush to kill wildlife" clique!

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        DD is doing her dressage thing at a farm where the owner/trainer is a licensed judge. When they have ANY type of show at their farm - very basic schooling/fun show for the clients...whatever - there is ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS someone else judging. Any judging owner/trainer does is never of her own clients. To do otherwise would be highly unprofessional (and against the rules if the show was recognized).

                                        Comment

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