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Questions about showing with my trainer - advice please

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  • #41
    Originally posted by RugBug View Post
    It's one thing when it's one day. It's something different when it's a potential 5 days. I don't know of anyone, eventers and foxhunters (though I don't really know too many of these) that would do as much as you are indicating if it was 5 days in a row. Eventers do two phases of jumping: stadium equals 1 class. XC, depending on the level, equals anywhere from 1.5 jumper classes (.5 to account for terrain) to 2-3 classes.
    THey are also conditioned differently than a hunter/jumper generally is. Most hunter/jumpers don't tend to do long galloping conditionings. Most hunter/jumpers school jumps 1-3 times a week, doing maybe 4-5 courses per jump school. And they don't need to have a separate warm ups (flat and o/f) for each course. And again, like I said, when I take my horse to a show I want him to enjoy it as much as possible which to me means to not work him anymore over the course of those 5 days than he would work 5 at home days. But to each their own. This is how I learned with my trainer as I started to show and it's something I continue as I feel it's the best course of action for most cases at shows.

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    • Original Poster

      #42
      Thank you, everyone for basically telling me what I already knew in the back of my mind. I am fairly timid when dealing with these things so I never know if I am way off track or not. I don't know if I will end up going or not ... I'm still working on the expenses ... but this situation has certainly given me a great deal to think about. My trainer is really very good and knows what she's doing. But we don't always see eye-to-eye and it seems to be happening on more and more things - but that's a question for another thread.

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      • #43
        Are you going to troop?
        The best sports bras for riders are Anita 5527 and Panache! Size UP in Anita, down in Panache (UK sizing)

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        • #44
          I'm a former eventer and current foxhunter so to me, it seems obvious: put your horse on your trailer and go on your own. However, in those disciplines, I've never had a trainer who was put out if you don't trailer with them. When I evented I often went without a trainer and either competed on my own or had was coached by another trainer who was there. Sometimes I brought a groom when I evented but not always.

          I know the hunter world is different but I still think that if you have your own rig, you shouldn't be expected to subsidize your trainer by paying her shipping fees. It is completely legitimate to say that you bought your truck and trailer because you want to haul your own horse to shows, but you must be prepared that your trainer might not appreciate this.

          As for the rider/groom? It depends on your horse's fitness, how high the other person would jump, and how much you mind/don't mind sharing your horse at a show.
          Equine Ink - My soapbox for equestrian writings & reviews.
          EquestrianHow2 - Operating instructions for your horse.

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          • #45
            I don't begrudge a trainer making a profit on shipping. They bought and maintain the rig, insure it and fill the tank with expensive fuel and it is all a part of their business, not a hobby. I also appreciate a trainer trying to help a less well off client experience showing. I have been the beneficiary of such actions and appreciate it.

            That said, given what the OP has posted it looks like the OP is paying a massive markup and high fees to directly subsidize the other clients. If a pro wants to make lower cost options available they need to factor it into their overall pricing scheme for all services.


            I'd plan on attending on my own and using the saved shipping gmoney to pay a helper. It would be a sham eo tlet your truck and trailer go to waste. Don't be surprised though if a fellow client shows interest in going along, in your trailer! That might cause some more friction, but it sounds like you can handle it.
            F O.B
            Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
            Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

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            • #46
              I agree with a lot that has already been said, so I will try not to repeat earlier statements. It would seem to me that your relationship with this trainer, or just the communication with her, is seriously lacking. That said, if I were you in this situation, I would be looking for a trainer who seemed to want to help me show, rather than make it more difficult for me to do so.

              I would have thought that the two of you would have discussed you being about to buy your own rig and if it were a rule of hers for her to ship client horses herself to shows- that would have been an ideal time to tell you.. BEFORE not after the purchase.

              So if I had a trainer that I felt that I could not communicate with, that basically was making it difficult for me to show, making me feel like I was being taken advantage of... to stay with that trainer.. it would have to be Mclain, Missy Clark, Beezie, etc..

              I think you deserve better. Ship your horse to the show.. stalk the schooling rings early and approach a trainer about helping you for the days that you're there showing. With the money you save shipping yourself.. you might be able to afford more classes, or more training.. more important things. Good luck..

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              • #47
                Also.. regarding how much your horse can show in.. what I feel has been left out is who your horse is. I missed that part. I lean toward things that ElisLove said.. for a 5day show I would want my horse to stay happy and fresh.. not many classes per day for a 5 day show.. but it depends on what you're showing in, what you're sitting on, and most importantly how conditioned your horse is.

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                • Original Poster

                  #48
                  [QUOTE=aascvt;6863356] ... I would have thought that the two of you would have discussed you being about to buy your own rig and if it were a rule of hers for her to ship client horses herself to shows- that would have been an ideal time to tell you.. BEFORE not after the purchase. ... /QUOTE]

                  This is what is strange in this situation, I did talk to her about buying the trailer. I wanted her input and she was very much in favor of it - even saying it would be handy to have before the upcoming show. I think (and I could be wrong) that she was thinking there would be more people and horses coming to the show. Anyway, this is why all of this has thrown me for a loop.

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                  • Original Poster

                    #49
                    Originally posted by AliCat View Post
                    Are you going to troop?
                    No I'm not. Sorry.

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                    • #50
                      Originally posted by sammicat View Post
                      Thanks for the advice ... you and everyone else are absolutely correct that it is none of my business what is being charged to other people. I was just so shocked by my trainers stand point and rationale that I couldn't help wonder why? She really is normally a very logical and mature trainer so this is just ... well ... disappointing. Oh well ... I'm still trying to decide whether to go or not. There will be other shows.
                      And if she does the same thing at the next show(s)?
                      "Oh, sure, you may be able to take down one smurf, but mark my words: You bonk one smurf, you better be ready for a blue wave."---Bucky Katt

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                      • #51
                        I think it's interesting that you are possibly subsidizing other clients of your trainers'. My DD recently started showing lead line, at a very small barn, and when I got a very large bill for the lead line division (on a pony that she shared with another girl who was riding it later in the day in a couple hunter classes) I was surprised!

                        Especially when she complained about the very large outstanding board bill for another girl and how she was allowing the girl to go to the show even though she was supposed to be working off the board bill.

                        I think I paid the majority of the shipping costs just for DD to do a LL class. At least your trainer was upfront about it. I feel line I am being pegged as an idiot with a checkbook.

                        Which I am not.

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                        • #52
                          OP, I don't think you owe it to the other riders or the trainer to make her numbers work out for that show.

                          I'd pleasantly stand firm on shipping my horse myself in my rig. I'd tell trainer that I hope she can come to the show. I'd be prepared to go to the show by myself if that didn't work out. Heck, if you wanted to do the right thing (or the challenging thing), you'd ask her if she can recommend a trainer colleague who is going to the show who could coach you.

                          If she is making money off of the people riding her horse (and she's making the coaching fees off of the people riding yours?), maybe she can see that there is some profit in allowing you to haul her horse at cost or close to that.

                          Be nice, but you don't have to make sure that her business keeps working or other clients get to show. That's her job.
                          The armchair saddler
                          Politically Pro-Cat

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                          • #53
                            Originally posted by Mac123 View Post
                            The right way to account for issues like this is to have an additional fee if less than x number or riders are attending a show. Trainers have to ensure that they do not lose money by being away for a weekend, and this is the most up front and honest way of doing so.

                            Hiding it in other fees just makes it easier for clients to not realize what they are paying for....and easier for the trainer to cover all their bases in unethical ways.

                            OP, unfortunately, your trainer can treat you differently than the other clients...maybe she struck a deal with them you are unaware of and they are helping her in some way or maybe she's just an unfair person. That's life.

                            That being said, having YOU foot the bill of making sure she makes money that weekend is not appropriate.

                            She should charge a fee for so few attending, and then if she chooses to give her other clients a deal, SHE's the one that takes that hit, not you.

                            I would let her know you cannot afford her hauling fees and that you will be hauling from now on. Then I'd closely examine other areas and make sure you're not being taken advantage of elsewhere - and also be aware she may say you can't show unless you haul with her. Unfair, (unethical?!), but her barn, her rules, and you may need a plan B.

                            Good luck, and sorry that she is being this way!
                            You are right, but I am confused.You said that the trainer may tell the OP she can't show...I am not from the hunter/jumper etc world, so I may be way off base, but if a person I am paying to work my horse tried to tell me that I could not show my horse unless I hauled with her....I would leaving. Is this the norm? I can understand if the trainer says no, you can't use my name, or stable with us or even if she won't coach her at a show, but forbidding going? Oh no...
                            http://community.webshots.com/album/548368465RfewoU[/url]

                            She may not have changed the stars from their courses, but she loved a good man, and she rode good horses….author unknown

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                            • #54
                              Originally posted by Gnalli View Post
                              You are right, but I am confused.You said that the trainer may tell the OP she can't show...I am not from the hunter/jumper etc world, so I may be way off base, but if a person I am paying to work my horse tried to tell me that I could not show my horse unless I hauled with her....I would leaving. Is this the norm? I can understand if the trainer says no, you can't use my name, or stable with us or even if she won't coach her at a show, but forbidding going? Oh no...
                              This is a prevalent attitude in the H/J world, unfortunately; many riders are brought up believing that they must have their trainer to show and often feel incapable of showing by themselves.

                              While I am a long-time participant in the H/J, I have never catered to this mentality, going to shows sans trainer as early as 13 or 14, as long I could get someone to ship my horse

                              If you have a trainer that you like and value their opinions, it is important to listen to their input, but many trainers take advantage of this and go too far, dictating what their clients may and may not do with their own horses; the OP's situation is one of these cases, and I can tell you with certainty that I'd be quickly establishing a new relationship with different boundaries if it were me.
                              Lucy (Precious Star) - 1994 TB mare; happily reunited with her colt Touch the Stars

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                              • #55
                                Actually, you can only lead somebody who wants to be led and it is NOT the norm to forbid clients from hauling their own in even BNT Hunter Jumper barns. This is kind of an out there example.

                                sammicat? Didn't you just buy the trailer after asking for recommendations on here? Like a couple of weeks ago????

                                Ummmm, you need another trainer. Particularly since you have had a chat about it and she is clear on what you are to do or not do despite knowing you were buying that trailer.

                                This is not normal and" just the way it goes" in H/J barns. It is typical in the barns of over controlling trainers trying to sqeeze every penny out of clients, those with "side deals" with some clients but not others and those who can't budget or follow a business plan and expect to constantly change their charges to finance shortfalls in operating capital.

                                Don't lie there and take this blindside of not being able to haul your own horse in your own trailer you just bought. Don't listen to her excuses or "rationalizing" forbidding you to do so either.

                                She is wrong. She does not have your best interests at heart and is not interested in being fair and transparent with all charges until the last minute either.

                                Time for plan B.
                                When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                                The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  I agree with findeight. Yes there will be other shows but sounds like unless your trainer's trailer is full she will expect you to trailer with her and supplement her income. Also the whole having someone ride your horse in exchange for grooming would be okay if it was your idea and your friend, but if your trainer suggested it and trainer would make a fee off the deal it would be.... well....
                                  I would really be looking for another situation if showing is important to you and you don't want to get "taken."

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by Gnalli View Post
                                    if a person I am paying to work my horse tried to tell me that I could not show my horse unless I hauled with her....I would leaving. Is this the norm? I can understand if the trainer says no, you can't use my name, or stable with us or even if she won't coach her at a show, but forbidding going? Oh no...
                                    If you are in a trainer's program, they can have a rule that you cannot show iwthout them. It's up to the owner/rider to decide if that's a rule they can abide by and if not, they need to find another barn.

                                    Not all trainers are like this...especially in more boarding barn type situations. But the true programs? There are legitimate reasons a trainer might not want you to show without them. There are also reasons that don't hold water, such as "you have to ship with me to help offset my costs."
                                    Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
                                    Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

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                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by findeight View Post
                                      It is typical in the barns of over controlling trainers trying to squeeze every penny out of clients, those with "side deals" with some clients but not others and those who can't budget or follow a business plan and expect to constantly change their charges to finance shortfalls in operating capital.

                                      Don't lie there and take this blindside of not being able to haul your own horse in your own trailer you just bought. Don't listen to her excuses or "rationalizing" forbidding you to do so either.

                                      She is wrong. She does not have your best interests at heart and is not interested in being fair and transparent with all charges until the last minute either.
                                      This quote is spot on.

                                      I also see this behavior in trainers who see their clients as $$ instead of clients. Some trainers are just one step away from poverty so they squeeze clients for every last cent. Remember OP, you are the client. You are paying for a service, period. Not subsidizing trainer because she is a poor business person. Trainers only pull this crap on those who they think will not challenge it. This is why some people get all kinds of breaks and others are asked to make up the difference. Because your trainer pulled this crap with you, the relationship is forever tainted. You will always wonder if you are being taken advantage of.

                                      Time to cut ties with trainer.

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by Schune View Post
                                        This is a prevalent attitude in the H/J world, unfortunately; many riders are brought up believing that they must have their trainer to show and often feel incapable of showing by themselves.

                                        While I am a long-time participant in the H/J, I have never catered to this mentality, going to shows sans trainer as early as 13 or 14, as long I could get someone to ship my horse

                                        If you have a trainer that you like and value their opinions, it is important to listen to their input, but many trainers take advantage of this and go too far, dictating what their clients may and may not do with their own horses; the OP's situation is one of these cases, and I can tell you with certainty that I'd be quickly establishing a new relationship with different boundaries if it were me.
                                        Thank you!
                                        http://community.webshots.com/album/548368465RfewoU[/url]

                                        She may not have changed the stars from their courses, but she loved a good man, and she rode good horses….author unknown

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                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by RugBug View Post
                                          If you are in a trainer's program, they can have a rule that you cannot show iwthout them. It's up to the owner/rider to decide if that's a rule they can abide by and if not, they need to find another barn.

                                          Not all trainers are like this...especially in more boarding barn type situations. But the true programs? There are legitimate reasons a trainer might not want you to show without them. There are also reasons that don't hold water, such as "you have to ship with me to help offset my costs."
                                          Well, I can see that too. I just have an issue with being told I can't go to a show.My dh tries it-to the point of not fixing nor allowing me to have someone else fix my trailer-so I get around it. I would assume that if a trainer told me no, you aren't going, they would have to have a pretty good reason-as in in your horse will kill you or keel over-for me not to become an ex client. I don't become an ex-wife over it, but that is a tad different, lol.
                                          http://community.webshots.com/album/548368465RfewoU[/url]

                                          She may not have changed the stars from their courses, but she loved a good man, and she rode good horses….author unknown

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