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Horse Ridden by Keenan Dropping at WEF yesterday?

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  • #81
    Originally posted by equisusan View Post
    I am a hunter rider although certainly not living in a bubble. I would never show one of my horses or anyone else's if it collapsed that day or that week honestly. My primary concern is always for my horses' health and well-being as well as my own safety. Just crazy! Poor sweet horses - either drugged, unsound or exhausted - its not right.
    AGREED!!

    When I showed and groomed (to pay off my training fees) as a Jr in the hunters in the 90s, on the local circuit in Maine and NH, I was always envious of those who could afford to do the "A's" and travel south for the winter circut. I would read A Very Young Rider over and over, imagining how great it would be to participate at that level of riding and competition.

    Since joining COTH I have had my eyes blown wide open to the reality of some of those who do the A circuit and am so glad I didn't know about it back then. If I had, it would have surely crushed everything I admired and longed for as a "young rider."

    Today, it only makes me that much more grateful for my dusty show rings and uneven grass fields at the Acton Fairgrounds with my sometimes "very fresh" pony
    http://i1170.photobucket.com/albums/...ps0214b134.jpg
    Last edited by wcporter; Feb. 24, 2013, 07:32 AM. Reason: clarifying!
    Barn rat for life

    Comment


    • #82
      seriously???


      Originally posted by skydy View Post
      The trainer of Parkland is listed as Gerardo Escalara (Heritage Farm) ,Rider Lillie Keenan ,Owner Jennifer Gates.

      Comment


      • #83
        Originally posted by jumpinjackflash View Post
        seriously???
        Yes. http://showgroundslive.com/esp/entri...ail/eid/444884

        Comment


        • #84
          that is just all kinds of sketchy!!!

          Comment


          • #85
            Why can't/doesn't the USEF automatically test in these situations? Its been low to mid 80's in Palm Beach, not hot, but perhaps the horse was dehydrated?

            Agree with the poster who said the groom listed as trainer is more than fishy. I get it that the groom preps/handles the horse. But who is really calling the shots here? If you don't trust your groom with med administration to the point that you refuse to list yourself as trainer, its time for a different groom. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together can see there's more than what meets the eye in this type of situation.

            Originally posted by ElisLove View Post
            That is because racing is done with multiple horses on the field, moving at very high rate of speed. A horse collapsing in that is not just dangerous for one horse and rider but a whole field of galloping horses.
            If this horse was drugged and did collapse I don't think it should have shown same day unless a logical reason was found for it happening (pinch vegas nerve or something) but the reason a racehorse needs to be cleared isn't really for it's own welfare but for the whole field of horses.
            Whether its one horse/rider or a whole field of horses/riders, its simply NOT okay. Period.

            Comment


            • #86
              Originally posted by jumpinjackflash View Post
              that is just all kinds of sketchy!!!
              http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...=heritage+farm There was a discussion here if you are interested..

              Comment


              • #87
                Originally posted by wcporter View Post
                AGREED!!

                When I showed and groomed (to pay off my training fees) as a Jr in the hunters in the 90s, on the local circuit in Maine and NH, I was always envious of those who could afford to do the "A's" and travel south for the winter circut. I would read A Very Young Rider over and over, imagining how great it would be to participate at that level of riding and competition.

                Since joining COTH I have had my eyes blown wide open to the reality of the "A's " and am so glad I didn't know about it back then. If I had, it would have surely crushed everything I admired and longed for as a "young rider." [/url]
                Not the reality of the As. I show exclusively at A shows and would never let these things happen to me or my horses. It is the reality for people who treat these gracious animals like property. Don't count us all out. There are people showing at A shows that are ethical and care about their animals.
                You don't scare me. I ride a MARE!

                Comment


                • #88
                  Originally posted by EML1960 View Post
                  I agree, no one should fault a child or any rider under the guidance of professionals managing the care of a horse.
                  Yabbut it would seem to me that among all of the folks who ought to speak up for the horse, it would make the most sense that the rider took that role. And perhaps that's merely for self-preservation.
                  The armchair saddler
                  Politically Pro-Cat

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    Originally posted by Angelico View Post
                    iEquitate said it, a normal horse in good health does not collapse ringside.
                    True, but my son's pony had a bad habit of just dropping if the grounds were the least bit muddy. Didn't matter if someone was on his back or not. I have no idea why this particular horse dropped, but for Pokey, it was love of mud. Greys. sigh.
                    http://www.tbhsa.com/index.html

                    Originally Posted by JSwan
                    I love feral children. They taste like chicken.

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      Originally posted by MyGiantPony View Post
                      True, but my son's pony had a bad habit of just dropping if the grounds were the least bit muddy. Didn't matter if someone was on his back or not. I have no idea why this particular horse dropped, but for Pokey, it was love of mud. Greys. sigh.

                      Big difference in "collapsing" or "dropping" ringside than going in for a good time roll.

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        Originally posted by hunterrider23 View Post
                        Are you freaking kidding me? Unvelievable. Announcers might as well saying, "wow, how nicely drugged this one is!"
                        I said this on the other "Live Stream" thread, and I'll say it again here. I hope the announcers are well paid for their farm/trainer endorsements.

                        There was a comment made near the end of the second round to the effect of how great so-and-so's place is and the care is so great.....while so-and-so just finished her round !

                        Parkland (during the awards given between rounds) seemed half awake during the win picture. She went to move him back a step or two, and he slowly moved back, but kept one knee slightly bent as if he had trouble standing. He finally straightened it out, but an alert horse wouldn't WANT to stand on bended knee.
                        His head rarely came above his withers.

                        He truly rallied in the second round, and thankfully made it around safely. But I think we all agree he "just wasn't right."

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          Originally posted by callmegold View Post
                          Big difference in "collapsing" or "dropping" ringside than going in for a good time roll.
                          Very true. But not having seen this particular horse drop, I'm just throwing out that it could have been something other than nefarious causes. (Sadly, I don't really believe it.)
                          http://www.tbhsa.com/index.html

                          Originally Posted by JSwan
                          I love feral children. They taste like chicken.

                          Comment


                          • #93
                            Granted I skimmed through this topic I am still wondering why we are all assuming details that have been passed along like a game of telephone. Such is this sport. I would really like to hear from someone who was either watching or is part of Heritage - which most likely will not happen.

                            For those of you who said that Lillie herself should make a statement ... Who on earth would allow their child, client or catch rider to make any sort of statement at the age of 15? Regardless of the situation. 75% of the riders of that caliber don't even know the terms "IM" or "IV" let alone know what the horse they're riding was administered, if it was administered anything. Don't get me wrong, i'm not an idiot when it comes to something being obvious but i'd much rather hear it from the horses mouth. Unfortunately for us Parkland cannot talk.

                            Once again, i'd like to hear the details from someone who actually whiteness this first hand. Not someone who heard from someone who mentioned it. I don't mean to defend anyone whatsoever in this case but the whole story doesn't line up. With such a dramatic scene that a large number of people saw and heard about, more detail should be issued. This makes it sound as if the horse dropped 3 times, was jogged back to the barn immediately after it dropped and then jogged back to the show ring. There is absolutely no way that not a single rider, trainer, groom or bystander was curious enough to linger around the general area of the horses stall to hear or see something. Call me crazy but I sure as hell would've. For the sake of the horse especially.

                            Last but certainly not least. This is hardly what the A circuit is like on a daily basis. You have a handful of ill indented people just like you would in any work setting. I know more people with great intent who uphold the outlook of the horse coming first, over those who will do anything to win. You should've heard the rumors flying around Thermal the past 5 weeks regarding a specific group of trainers who are inconveniently hurt at the same time.

                            Horseshowdiva is the largest joke in the history of the sport other than Mr. Ed himself. Reading Star magazine's stories about Britney Spears hoping to undergo a gender change surgery is about as accurate as horseshowdiva's stories.

                            Comment


                            • #94
                              I just went and read the whole thread that was cited here on Heritage Farms decision to have their Head Groom sign the form as trainer. One of the Heritage people who acts as a non-signatory trainer posted that their practice came after consultation with a lawyer.

                              It seems that the USEF rule says the person signing as trainer should be one who is responsible for the care, training, custody OR performance of the horse. Since any one of those four situations authorizes a person to sign as trainer, Heritage chose to have an employee sign who is responsible for daily care. One wonders what actual independent authority he has on medication issues--i.e., can he call in a vet and do what the vet suggests without informing the non-signatory trainers? In Heritage Farms' case, the 'real' trainers (the business generators) have responsibility for the training, custody and performance, but they do not sign.

                              Clearly it's the OR in the rule that needs rethinking. A very simple rule change to change the OR to an AND would place the onus on the person with ultimate responsibility. Or simply drop all options except "performance of the horse."

                              But does the USEF even care? If it doesn't care enough to test horses who collapse on show grounds or demand a necropsy for horses who die there, does it care at all?
                              "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                              Thread killer Extraordinaire

                              Comment


                              • #95
                                USEF seems to feel that the problem is that trainers aren't AWARE of the rules or are unable to FIND the rules. http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/...sef-convention

                                IMO USEF's response, to the question of how to keep their members from KILLING their horses/ponies, let alone "dropping" them temporarily, is not indicitive of a governing body that "cares".

                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  Slightly off topic and perhaps a bit snarky but how many people who work for USEF in that specific department truly are there for every horses wellbeing?

                                  Comment


                                  • #97
                                    Originally posted by equisusan View Post
                                    Not the reality of the As. I show exclusively at A shows and would never let these things happen to me or my horses. It is the reality for people who treat these gracious animals like property. Don't count us all out. There are people showing at A shows that are ethical and care about their animals.
                                    Sorry...that wasn't how I meant it I should have clarified as, its the reality of "some" of the BNTs who do the circuit. Not trying to insinuate that Vivi Malloy was riding a "drugged" Penny!
                                    Last edited by wcporter; Feb. 24, 2013, 11:00 AM.
                                    Barn rat for life

                                    Comment


                                    • #98
                                      Originally posted by strides View Post
                                      Granted I skimmed through this topic I am still wondering why we are all assuming details that have been passed along like a game of telephone. Such is this sport. I would really like to hear from someone who was either watching or is part of Heritage - which most likely will not happen.

                                      For those of you who said that Lillie herself should make a statement ... Who on earth would allow their child, client or catch rider to make any sort of statement at the age of 15? Regardless of the situation. 75% of the riders of that caliber don't even know the terms "IM" or "IV" let alone know what the horse they're riding was administered, if it was administered anything. Don't get me wrong, i'm not an idiot when it comes to something being obvious but i'd much rather hear it from the horses mouth. Unfortunately for us Parkland cannot talk.

                                      Once again, i'd like to hear the details from someone who actually whiteness this first hand. Not someone who heard from someone who mentioned it. I don't mean to defend anyone whatsoever in this case but the whole story doesn't line up. With such a dramatic scene that a large number of people saw and heard about, more detail should be issued. This makes it sound as if the horse dropped 3 times, was jogged back to the barn immediately after it dropped and then jogged back to the show ring. There is absolutely no way that not a single rider, trainer, groom or bystander was curious enough to linger around the general area of the horses stall to hear or see something. Call me crazy but I sure as hell would've. For the sake of the horse especially.

                                      Last but certainly not least. This is hardly what the A circuit is like on a daily basis. You have a handful of ill indented people just like you would in any work setting. I know more people with great intent who uphold the outlook of the horse coming first, over those who will do anything to win. You should've heard the rumors flying around Thermal the past 5 weeks regarding a specific group of trainers who are inconveniently hurt at the same time.

                                      Horseshowdiva is the largest joke in the history of the sport other than Mr. Ed himself. Reading Star magazine's stories about Britney Spears hoping to undergo a gender change surgery is about as accurate as horseshowdiva's stories.
                                      There are people who witnessed the event and said so in here. And although HS might be snarky they seem to report things much faster than here. And a lot of the info reported there first gets discussed here afterwards.

                                      Comment


                                      • #99
                                        For all who are wondering about the events with Parkland this weekend, please see the Chronicle's Mollie Bailey's report on the WCHR Hunter Spectacular, where she speaks with Lillie Keenan about the incident....

                                        http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/...ain-palm-beach

                                        Comment


                                        • First, re Heritage Farms - the fact that you have to have a lawyer tell you to use the most expendible person on the team to sign entries is quite telling in and of itself.
                                          That the USEF thinks trainers don't know the rules, NFW. Any trainer of any caliber in the show world knows the rules generally and where to find specifics.
                                          Whoever was quoted in Skydy's linked article has their hands over their eyes and is saying "la la la la la" so they also can't hear!
                                          I was also a bit amused that the commentator on Life Feed last night mentions something akin to "the judges like to see a horse who shows personality" and then "oh that might have been a little too much personality" at I think Empire's second round.
                                          We don't get less brave; we get a bigger sense of self-preservation........

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