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Horse Ridden by Keenan Dropping at WEF yesterday?

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  • Originally posted by Kenike View Post
    That's funny...when others mentioned drugging is rampant in the hunters, they were blatantly told they are wrong. I, personally, was called a whack job.

    The fact remains that it is known to happen,
    Or maybe some of the people who said they were wrong are the type of people that do get hung up on semantics...as I do. I prefer accuracy, not exaggeration. I prefer facts, not opinion.

    For example in the above quote. I will not agree with the first statement that drugging is rampant in the hunters. This is opinion.

    I will agree with the second statement that it is known to happen. This is fact.

    If you try to get me to agree that it is rampant, I might just call you a whack job and do my best to prove that there are many, many people who do not use drugs. That does not, however, mean that I don't think it happens or that it is a problem that needs to be addressed.

    Some people believe that means I am sticking my head in the sand. That's okay. Because I have a tendency to think anyone who exaggerates to prove a point is really just a liar and is not to be trusted. The only real information you will get from that person is anything that supports their opinion.
    Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
    Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

    Comment


    • Don't we have enough facts already?

      1. A horse went down before a class. It wasn't pretty -- the rider says she thought the horse was colicking, others say the horse had lost control of its bowels and bladder.

      2. The horse came back to show that day, several times, with a 15 year-old on its back.

      3. The person signing as 'trainer' and thus taking responsibility for this horse is the one person in the food/care chain who has no control over what is administered to this animal. Would you buy a used car from this operation? Of course not. It stinks.

      Even without the drugs or bee sting story, something is very wrong here.

      If you accept the bee sting, then the horse had a very violent reaction to it and should be treated with steroids, kept under observation and not ridden that day.

      If you accept the narcolepsy confabulation that's been suggested here, then this would be the horse's initial presentation of 'narcolepsy' and the horse should have a full veterinary evaluation before resuming work. This horse should not be ridden and handled with extreme caution, preferably with two people always present.

      If it's drugs, then someone knows the answer already, but clearly, there's been an unintended consequence in the collapse. Something went wrong in either dosage or absorption or metabolization. This is why the horse shouldn't be ridden again that day.

      I feel badly for young Lillie. Maybe she believes all this BS. Maybe she doesn't. Maybe there's a voice in her head that's getting a little less easy to keep quiet. Or maybe she decided a long time ago that she doesn't want to know and she just wants to win.

      Lillie, if you're reading this, you should be aware that there are people out there who can do things to your horses -- and to you -- that you'll never get over. Get away from them and stay away from them, and do it now, while you're still young and full of dreams and promise and optimism.

      No matter where you go in the horse world, one thing won't change: horses are the most wonderful, generous animals. Surround yourself with people who don't take advantage of their generosity.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by RugBug View Post
        Or maybe some of the people who said they were wrong are the type of people that do get hung up on semantics...as I do. I prefer accuracy, not exaggeration. I prefer facts, not opinion.

        For example in the above quote. I will not agree with the first statement that drugging is rampant in the hunters. This is opinion.

        I will agree with the second statement that it is known to happen. This is fact.

        If you try to get me to agree that it is rampant, I might just call you a whack job and do my best to prove that there are many, many people who do not use drugs. That does not, however, mean that I don't think it happens or that it is a problem that needs to be addressed.

        Some people believe that means I am sticking my head in the sand. That's okay. Because I have a tendency to think anyone who exaggerates to prove a point is really just a liar and is not to be trusted. The only real information you will get from that person is anything that supports their opinion.
        Perhaps rampant is the wrong word. But you caught my drift.

        It happens. It happens more often than some people want to admit or realize (depending on where you actually are in that grand scheme of things). And it really is a problem that needs to be addressed.
        Last edited by Kenike; Feb. 26, 2013, 05:25 PM. Reason: semantics
        "IT'S NOT THE MOUNTAIN WE CONQUER, BUT OURSELVES." SIR EDMUND HILLARYMember of the "Someone Special To Me Serves In The Military" Clique

        Comment


        • Or, on the other hand, maybe she was there when it happened, understood how it happened (bee), and made an educated decision to continue showing based on her facts and the advice of her veterinarian. Much less exciting but sounds much more plausible to me.

          Just as an additional thought - I am willing to consider Lilly's statement in the Chronicle as reliable, I am not willing to consider the HSD statement about the incident as fact, especially when contradicted with a logical, reasonable explanation.


          Originally posted by JER View Post
          Don't we have enough facts already?

          1. A horse went down before a class. It wasn't pretty -- the rider says she thought the horse was colicking, others say the horse had lost control of its bowels and bladder.

          2. The horse came back to show that day, several times, with a 15 year-old on its back.

          3. The person signing as 'trainer' and thus taking responsibility for this horse is the one person in the food/care chain who has no control over what is administered to this animal. Would you buy a used car from this operation? Of course not. It stinks.

          Even without the drugs or bee sting story, something is very wrong here.

          If you accept the bee sting, then the horse had a very violent reaction to it and should be treated with steroids, kept under observation and not ridden that day.

          If you accept the narcolepsy confabulation that's been suggested here, then this would be the horse's initial presentation of 'narcolepsy' and the horse should have a full veterinary evaluation before resuming work. This horse should not be ridden and handled with extreme caution, preferably with two people always present.

          If it's drugs, then someone knows the answer already, but clearly, there's been an unintended consequence in the collapse. Something went wrong in either dosage or absorption or metabolization. This is why the horse shouldn't be ridden again that day.

          I feel badly for young Lillie. Maybe she believes all this BS. Maybe she doesn't. Maybe there's a voice in her head that's getting a little less easy to keep quiet. Or maybe she decided a long time ago that she doesn't want to know and she just wants to win.

          Lillie, if you're reading this, you should be aware that there are people out there who can do things to your horses -- and to you -- that you'll never get over. Get away from them and stay away from them, and do it now, while you're still young and full of dreams and promise and optimism.

          No matter where you go in the horse world, one thing won't change: horses are the most wonderful, generous animals. Surround yourself with people who don't take advantage of their generosity.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by DMK View Post
            And you must admit, the bar is pretty low!
            *snork*
            *****
            You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

            Comment


            • Wouldn't you think, that if this horse had reacted as violently as somebody stated (collapsed repeatedly and lost control of its bowels) somebody, somewhere would of had a video of it happening! But, there's zilch, nada, nothing! While I agree with people that stated they would probably let their horse rest after an episode like this, the vet cleared it to show so just maybe, it happened exactly as Lillie stated and it was just a freak thing!
              Go Ahead: This is a dare, not permission. Don't Do It!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JER View Post
                Don't we have enough facts already?

                1. A horse went down before a class. (Fact) It wasn't pretty (opinion) -- the rider says she thought the horse was colicking,(Fact) others say the horse had lost control of its bowels and bladder.(anonymous people behind screennames...so at best hearsay at worst gossip)

                2. The horse came back to show that day, several times, with a 15 year-old on its back. (fact)

                3. The person signing as 'trainer' and thus taking responsibility for this horse is the one person in the food/care chain who has no control over what is administered to this animal.( opinion) Would you buy a used car from this operation? Of course not.(opinion) It stinks.(opinion)
                Nope. Because your "Facts" above, contain a lot of opinion as noted above in bold.

                The rest of the post is so full of opinion and so little fact that would be a waste to point it out.
                Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
                Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

                Comment


                • Originally posted by RugBug View Post
                  Linny, the problem with your post is you made assumptions as to what a groom is based on your experience and some stereotypes that aren't always accurate. It had already been stated that this particular groom has worked for the farm in question for 15 years or more and has a LOT of responsibility. He's no short term, recent hire. I honestly believe he is has a lot of say regarding the care, custody and control of the horses.
                  And he signs the entry forms too ? And so he's a member of USEF ?

                  Still not clear if the grooms who sign the entry forms have to be members.
                  Considering they'd take the fall for a suspension...does the trainer pay the groom's membership, or does the groom pay it himself ?

                  Comment


                  • Honestly, the number of people who know exactly what happened to this horse, knows exactly how every horse responds to outside stimuli and knows how every disease presents leaves me in awe of two things.

                    One, clearly the depth and breadth of ability to know these things through the computer screen and

                    Two, how, with all this extensive knowledge, they have never seen horses do some random thing that made them go, WTF??? That they don't know it's horses and they WILL do some amazingly random things, usually designed to hurt themselves.

                    I am clearly an idiot because, after 40+ years, horses still have the ability to make me say, 'Well, I've never seen THAT before!'

                    And because some people will miss it: /sarchasm
                    *****
                    You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by RugBug View Post
                      Or maybe some of the people who said they were wrong are the type of people that do get hung up on semantics...as I do. I prefer accuracy, not exaggeration. I prefer facts, not opinion.

                      For example in the above quote. I will not agree with the first statement that drugging is rampant in the hunters. This is opinion.

                      I will agree with the second statement that it is known to happen. This is fact.

                      If you try to get me to agree that it is rampant, I might just call you a whack job and do my best to prove that there are many, many people who do not use drugs. That does not, however, mean that I don't think it happens or that it is a problem that needs to be addressed.
                      Exactly. Additionally, I would go on the record, as I imagine most other well-educated posters and credible trainers would too, and also state that there are a number of legal drugs that are necessary and can be used therapeutically to keep our horses sound and comfortable. I do not consider this "drugging".

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mardi View Post
                        And he signs the entry forms too ? And so he's a member of USEF ?

                        Still not clear if the grooms who sign the entry forms have to be members.
                        Non members can train, ride and show USEF, they just pay non-member fees.
                        Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
                        Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by RugBug View Post
                          Nope. Because your "Facts" above, contain a lot of opinion as noted above in bold.
                          It's not exactly opinion that the horse-dropping situation was alarming. The rider thought it was colic, the horse was attended to by a vet and taken back to the barn.

                          This does not happen when the horse decides to take a leisurely roll.

                          If a horse drops in an unexplained and apparently distressing or violent way, you don't put a child back on the horse until you know what's going on. I don't think waiting till after lunch or until the next class is sufficient. Not when a child could be put at risk.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Tha Ridge View Post
                            Exactly. Additionally, I would go on the record, as I imagine most other well-educated posters and credible trainers would too, and also state that there are a number of legal drugs that are necessary and can be used therapeutically to keep our horses sound and comfortable. I do not consider this "drugging".
                            True. And I don't consider therapeutic (compassionate) medicine "drugging," either. Incidences where people use things they know won't test for purposes of changing a horse's attitude or way of going (i.e. calming) I do consider "drugging."

                            I am NOT saying that's what happened here (though I readily admit that was my first thought. STUPID move on my part, I know better than that). Simply that the sneaky types are (sadly) out there. And that I shouldn't have used the word "rampant."
                            "IT'S NOT THE MOUNTAIN WE CONQUER, BUT OURSELVES." SIR EDMUND HILLARYMember of the "Someone Special To Me Serves In The Military" Clique

                            Comment


                            • I don't know what happened here, but I would say for the record that my first thought wasn't drugs, but just that something was really wrong with the horse.

                              It concerned me, for the well-being of the horse and his rider, that the horse would have that kind of episode and then be shown over fences later in the day.

                              Maybe they did right by the horse and maybe everyone was totally satisfied. It's very possible: certainly this particular group of caretakers knows horses. We might consider, for the sake of the sport, if veterinary permission would or should be necessary to continue. Other owner/trainer/rider combinations might not be thinking so clearly.

                              In dressage there is a new rule, called the blood rule, that any blood seen on the horse is cause for elimination. It has come into play most notably with a favorite at the WEG in Kentucky. The reason for this rule is not only welfare of the horse, but perception of welfare of the horse - that a horse that is showing blood - even if it's not because of mistreatment by the competitor or any wrongdoing - is not eligible for a prize.

                              You can make the case that to be eliminated at the WEG because your horse bit his tongue is an injustice, and of course it's terrible luck, something all horsepeople have faced. On the other hand, there is a positive benefit for the sport in that it becomes obvious to all concerned that the welfare of the horses is primary, even over justice to the human competitor.

                              And we're all here because of the horses.
                              If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by wcporter
                                Maybe a horse who is drugged drops and rolls when stung by a bee?
                                Lol...well said.Bee sting my a#$

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by JER View Post
                                  It's not exactly opinion that the horse-dropping situation was alarming. The rider thought it was colic, the horse was attended to by a vet and taken back to the barn.

                                  This does not happen when the horse decides to take a leisurely roll.

                                  If a horse drops in an unexplained and apparently distressing or violent way, you don't put a child back on the horse until you know what's going on. I don't think waiting till after lunch or until the next class is sufficient. Not when a child could be put at risk.
                                  I beg to differ. I have a horse that if you tighten is girth just a touch to tight ( for him) he will throw himself to the ground... Once you loosen his girth he is fine but you better believe that the first time he did it I though he was colicing for about the first 5 minutes.

                                  Comment


                                  • Went down not once, but twice. Clearly appeared colicky. Clearly in distress. There were many there who saw it happen as it was at the end of the large olders and before the small olders began. Quite a few BNTs witnessed. But for the grace....blah blah.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Dorothy Gale View Post
                                      Went down not once, but twice. Clearly appeared colicky. Clearly in distress. There were many there who saw it happen as it was at the end of the large olders and before the small olders began. Quite a few BNTs witnessed. But for the grace....blah blah.
                                      Did YOU witness it? Or are you going off of hearsay like pretty much everyone else on this thread?
                                      http://www.youtube.com/user/supershorty628
                                      Proudly blogging for The Chronicle of the Horse!

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        "jonesy" said that Laura Bowery-Falco witnessed it. If anyone knows how to contact her/would like to contact her... There's a name.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by JER View Post
                                          It's not exactly opinion that the horse-dropping situation was alarming. The rider thought it was colic, the horse was attended to by a vet and taken back to the barn.
                                          This does not happen when the horse decides to take a leisurely roll.
                                          Not usually, but sometimes. I've wondering if my horse was colicing when he dropped suddenly. I decided it was because he was itchy...and never called the vet..and did ride him again.

                                          If a horse drops in an unexplained
                                          It was explained to their satisfaction, apparently

                                          and apparently distressing
                                          Distressing enough for a vet, but the vet's explanation was enough to relieve the distress

                                          or violent way
                                          It may or may not have been violent. I honestly have never seen a horse go down violently...unless is in the processing of dying from an anueryism. I do see plenty of colicing horses lay down quietly and the proceed to get more and more agitated once they are down. My experience indicates that they don't usually throw themselves on the ground thrashing right away.

                                          , you don't put a child back on the horse until you know what's going on.
                                          They knew what was going on. A bee sting. That ended the story for them. Period.
                                          I don't think waiting till after lunch or until the next class is sufficient. Not when a child could be put at risk.
                                          1. A child? Really? She's 15. Not an adult, but not a child, either.
                                          2. This "child" is probably more at risk anytime she steps foot into a GP ring. They had an explanation that was sufficient for them. Therefore the risk was no higher than it normally is for them.
                                          Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
                                          Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

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