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Horse Ridden by Keenan Dropping at WEF yesterday?

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  • Originally posted by Calamber View Post
    What, so what you are saying is that only if a horse could fall down and kill only it's rider or itself, that that is okay? Did you really mean that?

    I never ONCE said that. Where the heck did you think I said that. I said that the reasoning behind the racehorse rule was to keep large fields of galloping horses and riders safe. Comparing that rule to something in the hunter world is a lot different as there is only one horse going at a time, which means that the rider's choice affects the rider and it's horse only. This means that one rider's choice does not affect the rest of the competitors. I am just saying that the racehorse rule is installed b/c the rider's choice CAN affect (and possibly kill) others in the field.
    I then even stated in the EXACT SAME REPLY that I did not think the horse should have been shown if it actually did collapse. Man, you really just want to throw people under the bus.

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    • Originally posted by lrp1106 View Post
      This is very telling. I agree. But we mustn't forget that many of the more modern and recent calming tools aren't testable - magnesium, for example.
      Not arguing about how certain "calming" tools actually work but from my personal experiences and my OTTB's and uppity WB that is a freight train; feeding magnesium is a waste of money.

      Injecting it IS ILLEGAL and it will test if it's over the limit - That is one of the issues another rider had a few years ago.
      Live in the sunshine.
      Swim in the sea.
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      • In racing the trainer is the "ultimate insurer" meaning the trainer cannot just decide that Paco or Marianne are responsible for a "positive test" and himself face no consequence. Thus if a trainer is in Florida and a horse listed as his is found in violation in (say) California that trainer is sanctioned, even if he has not been in Cali in years and the horse was under the eye of an assistant.
        If Gerardo is the "trainer" I'd suggest that the Heritage clients start sending their checks to him.
        I do know this; if I were a Heritage client and something went terribly wrong with my horse, I might be suing and the suit would name Heritage (n the person of the owners and head trainers) and not the groom who was hired by the people I was paying huge money to manage and train my horse.

        If a head trainer is willing to accept massive payments, he should also be willing to accept the responsibility for the horses those payments represent.

        BTW: The strictness of racing rules involve safety of the participants and the betting public who wager on races. Since there is not pari mutuel betting on hunters it's a different set of rules. That said, the racing stewards have the authority to send and horse for testing at any time. If the paddock steward saw a horse acting strangely he could request testing. if a horse was heavily favored and ran badly he would probably be tested. A horse that was declared out because of a concern by a vet has to pass a vet exam and work to the stewards satisfaction before entering again. Of course and injury to a horse in a field of say 10 involves not only the horse and rider but 9 other pairs. That said, a fall and injury to even one horse and or rider is inexcusable if it could have been prevented.
        ETA: Since many of the horses in question are ridden by ammys and jr's who in many cases don't know how the horse was "prepped" I have an additional ethical issue. If a rider hops up on her horse she should be able to assume that it is ready for its best. If it falls and hurts her because her trainer drugged it without her knowledge, it would appear that the horseshow, via the stewards should or could be in some hot water.
        Last edited by Linny; Feb. 26, 2013, 12:44 AM.
        F O.B
        Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
        Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

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        • And I think to put this thread to bed we need real hard facts from someone that WAS THERE and knows what happened for sure.

          I don't believe it would be so quiet "if" the horse IN FACT dramatically fell down and urinated and defecated all over himself.
          Live in the sunshine.
          Swim in the sea.
          Drink the wild air.

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          • Originally posted by goodlife View Post
            I agree wholeheartedly with this. I don't think that Katie Prudent should be written down as Reed's trainer in charge of the care and custody of her horses. Now I don't know Reed personally, but I'm pretty sure Kessler Show Stables runs their own operation on a day-to-day basis and while trained by Katie, spends most of her downtime on her own.

            Do you really think it's such a farce to have the barn manager signing as trainer in situations such as these? I don't think the big grand prix riders are acting as nefariously as some are insinuating.
            Where the client is an ammy or a jr then head trainer (as listed on the farm website or business letter head and business cards) should be the ultimate insurer. This is far different from one GP rider who is coached on her own stock by a fellow GPer. I
            f I (as an ammy) went to visit a BNT hunter barn with an eye to joining the program, no doubt I would hear about Mr BNT and his accomplishments and those of "his" riders/clients. I'd hear about Assistant A and her rising GP career and Asst B and his recent hunter derby win. I'd hear how the barn manager studied under BNTs and how they consult diet and fitness experts etc. All these people and all these credentials and I get to a show and my "trainer" of record is a non English speaking, recent immigrant who was hired last month because he was happy to travel to warmer climate and who 3 months ago was hotwalking at Thistledown. Um....
            F O.B
            Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
            Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

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            • Originally posted by Piggiejump View Post
              Take a look at the entries of the top Grand Prix riders- Laura Kraut, Mclain Ward, Darragh Kenny, and Reed Kessler are the first to come to mind. They all have their managers as the trainer. In fact, I would say they somewhat started the practice. Not a strictly hunter practice.
              If you are riding in events where the rule is the rider is ultimately responsible, having the BM sign the form seems just fine to me because no one is trying to pass a buck...it simply cannot be passed.

              And I think that is the issue with the groom signing in the hunters or smaller classes. It seem like buck-passing even if that is not the intended purpose.

              Originally posted by lrp1106 View Post
              I've owned about 10 horses, and I've never had any narcoleptic horses. I've never personally known any horses, and I've ridden for most of my life. I'm not denying their existence, I trust many of the people on this board who tell their stories about narcoleptic horses. I just believe and think I have enough life experiences to say that a NARCOLEPTIC horse is unlikely. A bee sting is much more likely, which is what has been stated as the cause of the incident.
              I've owned 2 horses. One had bout of sleep deprivation that was worrisome. While he never actually fell, he came close a few times. I rode him anyway. I also figured out what was going on and made changes to his stabling so he felt secure enough to lay down and sleep and therefore didn't almost fall down from sleep deprivation. I haven't had a problem since, however, I'm guessing this horse would also experience the same kind of symptoms if taken from his home for weeks on end. He's particular about where he will sleep.

              We have another horse in our barn that is the same way, except he HAS fallen numerous times. He still gets ridden.

              I'm not going to comment on the situation at hand other than to say it's unfortunate that the reputation of hunters leads most people to believe the horse was drugged. That alone points out that there is a huge problem.

              Edited to add: Lord Helpus is right about the availability of turnout in CA...A show barn or not. While the other poster may not have had that experience, I would say her experiences are then outliers. You're lucky if a CA barn has a turnout that has grass and is of decent size.
              Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
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              • Originally posted by Calamber View Post
                That is not boredom, that is narcolepsy, which if you must know, comes from lack of sleep. Jesus.
                Keep up, honey. It was sarchasm.
                *****
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                • Originally posted by Linny View Post
                  . All these people and all these credentials and I get to a show and my "trainer" of record is a non English speaking, recent immigrant who was hired last month because he was happy to travel to warmer climate and who 3 months ago was hotwalking at Thistledown. Um....
                  Wow. Just because someone's name indicates a Hispanic heritage doesn't mean all of this. It's incredible to me how quickly it comes to that. If one of our American barn managers names were on there, would it be as big a problem? Even tho the name on the entry is of someone who has been at the barn for 20 years and is in charge of all those American managers? And is a legal citizen?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Calamber View Post
                    That is not boredom, that is narcolepsy, which if you must know, comes from lack of sleep. Jesus.
                    Ummm... no. Narcolepsy is not caused by a lack of sleep. It is a neurological disorder that is caused by the brain's inability to regulate the sleep/wake cycle. Exhaustion is caused by a lack of sleep, but should not be confused with narcolepsy which is a true medical condition.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by doublesstable View Post
                      And I think to put this thread to bed we need real hard facts from someone that WAS THERE and knows what happened for sure.

                      I don't believe it would be so quiet "if" the horse IN FACT dramatically fell down and urinated and defecated all over himself.
                      Uh, you mean someone like Lillie Keenan, maybe? If you read the thread, or even just read starting around post 102, you'll notice that she did state what happened during an interview. Of course, we couldn't possibly take her word for it.
                      According to the Mayan calendar, the world will not end this week. Please plan your life accordingly.

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                      • @ Piggie, thank you. Talk about an elitist, racist group of posters. I am embarrassed and ashamed for most of you.There are many talented and professional horsemen and women of all nationalities involved in the horse world. Some of the above posting are at best disgusting.
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                        • Originally posted by loshad View Post
                          Uh, you mean someone like Lillie Keenan, maybe? If you read the thread, or even just read starting around post 102, you'll notice that she did state what happened during an interview. Of course, we couldn't possibly take her word for it.
                          [I'm being sarcastic, I agree with you] Right, because we have to believe things that are posted on Horse Show Diva. Because that's such a good source of accurate, valuable information...
                          Last edited by supershorty628; Feb. 26, 2013, 05:43 PM.
                          http://www.youtube.com/user/supershorty628
                          Proudly blogging for The Chronicle of the Horse!

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                          • Originally posted by supershorty628 View Post
                            Right, because we have to believe things that are posted on Horse Show Diva. Because that's such a good source of accurate, valuable information...
                            It was posted here after an interview with COTH. Some are questioning whether it really was a bee sting, but Lillie, herself, said it was.
                            Like I said previously, the only ones who know 100% are those who prep the horse and the horse, himself.

                            A good point was made shortly ago: if it wasn't a simple roll, why aren't people actually screaming up?
                            "IT'S NOT THE MOUNTAIN WE CONQUER, BUT OURSELVES." SIR EDMUND HILLARYMember of the "Someone Special To Me Serves In The Military" Clique

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                            • Originally posted by supershorty628 View Post
                              Right, because we have to believe things that are posted on Horse Show Diva. Because that's such a good source of accurate, valuable information...
                              Psst, supershorty, I was being all sarcastic and whatnot.

                              If you'll mosey on over to post 199, you can read all about my views on HSD.
                              According to the Mayan calendar, the world will not end this week. Please plan your life accordingly.

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                              • Originally posted by loshad View Post
                                Psst, supershorty, I was being all sarcastic and whatnot.

                                If you'll mosey on over to post 199, you can read all about my views on HSD.
                                I was agreeing with you...
                                I wish we had a sarcasm font.
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                                Proudly blogging for The Chronicle of the Horse!

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                                • Sarcasm font would rock.
                                  According to the Mayan calendar, the world will not end this week. Please plan your life accordingly.

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                                  • Thinking about the turnout issue:

                                    While it's true that turnout is good for horses, think of all the centuries when horses were working animals. If you think that carriage horses or cab horses or even riding horses got turnout back when they were about the only transportation, particularly in cities like London or New York, I'd say you were probably dreaming. Horses lworked for centuries without turnout. They may not have been happy or well adjusted, but they lived. That's why all the furor over turnout at shows, even those of several weeks duration, seems odd.
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                                    • Originally posted by lrp1106 View Post
                                      I've owned about 10 horses, and I've never had any narcoleptic horses. I've never personally known any horses, and I've ridden for most of my life. I'm not denying their existence, I trust many of the people on this board who tell their stories about narcoleptic horses. I just believe and think I have enough life experiences to say that a NARCOLEPTIC horse is unlikely. A bee sting is much more likely, which is what has been stated as the cause of the incident.

                                      Aside from the rest of this thread* and its general topic which is just ... patently insane, there are two "types" of narcolepsy (for lack of more exact medical technology). True narcolepsy is very rare and probably not too many horses with the condition make it to the upper ranks of any sport except professional falling down.

                                      But a more common "type" is not narcolepsy at all but exhaustion from lack of true REM sleep. Horses need true REM and they only get that laying down. If they don't, they will mimic the symptoms of narcolepsy, buckling on cross ties, falling down in the stall and so on. Reasons a horse might not lay down range from pain (old horses/sore hocks), uncomfortable in surroundings (a horse low on the pecking order in a field with a very dominant aggressive pasture mate), unwillingness to lay down in the stall (size, too much activity, too little bedding, etc.) and god knows what else travels through their pea brains that makes them do the things they do.

                                      I've had one who would just not lay down in a stall no matter what and wasn't that thrilled with the idea in a pasture (although he made an art form out of rolling). If he was in a stall for several days th esymptoms would become very bad and if it was rainy/muddy outside where he didn't want to ever lay down, again symptoms were pretty bad. Winters were kind of tough on both of us.

                                      I have no idea what happened to the horse in question, but a horse in a horse show environment like WEF, even off the grounds might be a higher risk candidate than your average pony for REM sleep deprivation.

                                      As for the issue of non trainers signing the form, today it's legal. I personally believe it is not in keeping with the spirit of the rule regardless of the reason for doing so, but that is not Heritage's fault. If USEF does not clarify the rule (and they surely know how it is being used) then they have effectively declared that it's fine. If that pisses you off, you are missing the real target.


                                      * Notable exception for the exceptional use of sarchasm, both in the sarcaster and the sarchasmee's ability to embrace the full width of the chasm.
                                      Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

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                                      • Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                                        Thinking about the turnout issue:

                                        While it's true that turnout is good for horses, think of all the centuries when horses were working animals. If you think that carriage horses or cab horses or even riding horses got turnout back when they were about the only transportation, particularly in cities like London or New York, I'd say you were probably dreaming. Horses lworked for centuries without turnout. They may not have been happy or well adjusted, but they lived. That's why all the furor over turnout at shows, even those of several weeks duration, seems odd.
                                        True, but those horses were out moving around all day. They were not spending 23 hours a day in a 12x12 box.
                                        Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.
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                                        • Originally posted by RockinHorse View Post
                                          True, but those horses were out moving around all day. They were not spending 23 hours a day in a 12x12 box.
                                          And their useable life span was far shorter.

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