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Horse Ridden by Keenan Dropping at WEF yesterday?

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  • Originally posted by 2tempe View Post
    Big Grey Hunter - the definition of "trainer" is more broad than was in your post: It is:
    "Any adult, or adults who has the responsibility for the care, training, custody or
    performance of a horse."


    Yes, the groom may have responsibility for care and possibly custody. He/She does not have responsibility for training or the performance. And lets remember that most grooms do not have much decision making authority in terms of how the horse is managed: type/quantity of feed, what days it is worked, how much it jumps, whether it needs lunged on show days, whether its in need of supplements or joint injections, etc. MAYBE a groom would give a horse a shot, but that groom doesn't make the decision that it is needed.
    I think most people can probably agree that it was not the intent of USEF to have a bunch of grooms, some of which barely speak English, signing entry forms. And maybe we can agree that they could do a better job in the definition.
    It's been long understood that the person whose name is on the marquee is the person who signs the form. Maybe an assistant if the main trainer is out of town the day the entries are due. And people who keep their horses at home sign as their own, that's fine.

    It wasn't until recently that some people realized that having a manager or groom sign gave the head honcho - the one person who absolutely has to be at the shows - some immunity.

    The answer really is simple: the announcer should always announce the name of the person whose name is on the form as the trainer. If BNT didn't sign the form, then BNT gets no public credit for the win... since obviously it was actually Mr. Groom who was in charge.

    PS: anyone so important to your operation as to be signing as trainer should be prominently listed as a key person on your website, don't you think?
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

    Comment


    • I don't think anyone is accusing Lillie or Heritage of drugging Parkland - it just looks suspicious, because, unfortunately, the world of top hunters is tainted by stories of drug abuse. The reputations are around for a reason - if there were no truth to the rumors that some trainers drug their horses, then there would be no reason to suspect it.

      The whole hunter scene now is so far from what actual field hunters are like that it's a bit ridiculous. The way of going that is rewarded is so slow and quiet that the horses "look" like they are drugged. I hope that the pendulum swings back the other way to reward a more natural way of going in the hunters to reflect where the sports' roots were born - in the actual hunt field. Maybe if that happened, the drug abuse would naturally go away.

      Just my two cents... and I guess I'm showing my age because I grew up and showed back in the day with outside courses for hunters in (gasp) A shows.

      Comment


      • That sounds good to me. The shows will have to make a lot of changes though to allow for that kind of free-flowing way of going - I'm old enough to have ridden on some outside courses in hunter classes in the mid-'90s, but those are all gone in my area, and the big circuits will lose a lot of their revenue if they have to combine all those little hunter rings into larger spaces!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by poltroon View Post
          PS: anyone so important to your operation as to be signing as trainer should be prominently listed as a key person on your website, don't you think?
          I noticed this, too. The "trainer" doesn't even warrant a mention on the "About Us" page.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by magnolia73 View Post
            The idea that a top trainer may have additional staff that create and manage a "program" (fitness, meds, body work, nutrition, schedule) does not seem that far fetched to me. That they might sign off on forms may well be appropriate. I could see having a staff member on board with that type of expertise if you were a large barn. Football teams have trainers that manage the fitness of players and are seperate from coaches. It's a different set of expertise. I can see the appeal to a top rider to hand of responsibility for drugtesting to this other party, particularly if the rider is not directly administering the meds program; there is a lot to lose. The main thing though, to me, would be if the person signing off was involved in creating the program versus just dumping feed and meds in a feed dish.
            I agree wholeheartedly with this. I don't think that Katie Prudent should be written down as Reed's trainer in charge of the care and custody of her horses. Now I don't know Reed personally, but I'm pretty sure Kessler Show Stables runs their own operation on a day-to-day basis and while trained by Katie, spends most of her downtime on her own.

            Do you really think it's such a farce to have the barn manager signing as trainer in situations such as these? I don't think the big grand prix riders are acting as nefariously as some are insinuating.

            Comment


            • Anyone remember that hilarious riders' meeting in Calgary about five years ago when Ron Southern got up as he does every year and said he expected the riders to behave honorably, and a pillar of the British team put down his beer and hollered, "Well if you're not trying to cheat, you're not trying to win!"

              Comment


              • "I went and looked at that "other" site and the initial post never mentioned drugs. regardless, the eyewitnesses were laura bowery who was kind enough to jump in and try to help. the horse went down and flailed and then got up and back down again defecating and urinating all over himself and thrusting its legs like it was in a seizure, rolling up on its back, uncontrollable to get near. scott stewart and kim stewart were supposedly there. no one did anything but the bowery lady and it wasnt even her horse. it went on so long that the show vet came and it took the vet 10 minutes to get there. oh yeah, david burton jr was there. an event that goes on so long that the vet takes 10 minutes is no bee sting. if it was a big sting they had to give it something to counteract.

                oh and the announcer last night said keenan is trained by andre dignelli but thats not whats on the entry blank. i guess we will see what the drug test shows and who gets in trouble for not listing themselves as the trainer when they really are. that is fraud and they should be suspended from the usef for their deceit.

                and yes usef can drug test anything suspicious "

                wow jonesy - that sounds scary as hell
                Nothing says "I love you" like a tractor. (Clydejumper)

                The reports states, “Elizabeth reported that she accidently put down this pony, ........, at the show.”

                Comment


                • It made it to equestrian betches .....

                  http://equestrianbetches.tumblr.com/...-the-schooling

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by lrp1106 View Post
                    I've owned about 10 horses, and I've never had any narcoleptic horses. I've never personally known any horses, and I've ridden for most of my life. I'm not denying their existence, I trust many of the people on this board who tell their stories about narcoleptic horses. I just believe and think I have enough life experiences to say that a NARCOLEPTIC horse is unlikely. A bee sting is much more likely, which is what has been stated as the cause of the incident.
                    Except you also said horses who were tired or rolling. I was hoping you had actual statistics to back up your claim of statistics.
                    *****
                    You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

                    Comment


                    • I have no idea what happened with the horse Lillie was showing, and I won't speculate. However, I will say that I did have a large green pony lay down while I was on it in a schooling ring at a show once. The ring person had literally just called my name as "on deck," I turned to head to the show ring (it was indoor show where the tiny schooling ring was right next to the show ring - Ledges in Roscoe, IL, for those that know it), and the pony just dropped to the ground. I stepped off, encouraged the pony up off the ground, and we took the pony back to our stabling area for a vet to look at him. We scratched that division, obviously, as the pony was getting checked out while the division was running (I think I had already showed the pony in the greens earlier that morning and the dvision that was running was the larges).

                      There was nothing apparently wrong with the pony at the time other than that it had laid down. However, the pony later broke out into full body hives, an issue that was solved with an apple cider vinegar bath. It turned out (we believe) that the pony was allergic to the shavings at that venue. The pony ended up being fine, and I showed it in the remainder of the green pony classes the next day without incident.

                      So, it isn't ALWAYS something nefarious that causes a horse to go down.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by STA View Post
                        WOW, I am a very lucky person. All of the experts were not nearby when my horse fell asleep waiting at the gate for the jog, I went first and there were twenty in the class times two trips. He went down to his knees, startled himself and bounced around a little before getting back on his feet.
                        The horse had been champion of the country twice in a three foot six hunter division. I never had to lunge him OR drugs of any kind. He just was bored and fell asleep.
                        Again, Thank goodness this happen before the days of instant gossip. In fact most people present were laughing at the jokes asking if he would stay awake during the hack.
                        You know, according to this thread, you must have drugged because it is statistically unlikely that he was tired.
                        *****
                        You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by SGray View Post
                          "I went and looked at that "other" site and the initial post never mentioned drugs. regardless, the eyewitnesses were laura bowery who was kind enough to jump in and try to help. the horse went down and flailed and then got up and back down again defecating and urinating all over himself and thrusting its legs like it was in a seizure, rolling up on its back, uncontrollable to get near. scott stewart and kim stewart were supposedly there. no one did anything but the bowery lady and it wasnt even her horse. it went on so long that the show vet came and it took the vet 10 minutes to get there. oh yeah, david burton jr was there. an event that goes on so long that the vet takes 10 minutes is no bee sting. if it was a big sting they had to give it something to counteract.

                          wow jonesy - that sounds scary as hell
                          OMG, this doesn't sound like a bug bite to me...I'm NOT speculating what caused the incident, but I can say w/ absolute certainty that if I were the rider of the horse, there is no f....in way I would have climbed on it and gone into the ring!

                          SGray, I'm curious - were you there? (this is not meant to be a snarky question...)
                          We don't get less brave; we get a bigger sense of self-preservation........

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by SGray View Post
                            "I went and looked at that "other" site and the initial post never mentioned drugs. regardless, the eyewitnesses were laura bowery who was kind enough to jump in and try to help. the horse went down and flailed and then got up and back down again defecating and urinating all over himself and thrusting its legs like it was in a seizure, rolling up on its back, uncontrollable to get near. scott stewart and kim stewart were supposedly there. no one did anything but the bowery lady and it wasnt even her horse. it went on so long that the show vet came and it took the vet 10 minutes to get there. oh yeah, david burton jr was there. an event that goes on so long that the vet takes 10 minutes is no bee sting. if it was a big sting they had to give it something to counteract.

                            oh and the announcer last night said keenan is trained by andre dignelli but thats not whats on the entry blank. i guess we will see what the drug test shows and who gets in trouble for not listing themselves as the trainer when they really are. that is fraud and they should be suspended from the usef for their deceit.

                            and yes usef can drug test anything suspicious "

                            wow jonesy - that sounds scary as hell
                            Wait...what? Where are you quoting this from?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ElisLove View Post
                              That is because racing is done with multiple horses on the field, moving at very high rate of speed. A horse collapsing in that is not just dangerous for one horse and rider but a whole field of galloping horses.
                              If this horse was drugged and did collapse I don't think it should have shown same day unless a logical reason was found for it happening (pinch vegas nerve or something) but the reason a racehorse needs to be cleared isn't really for it's own welfare but for the whole field of horses.
                              What, so what you are saying is that only if a horse could fall down and kill only it's rider or itself, that that is okay? Did you really mean that?
                              "We, too, will be remembered not for victories or defeats in battle or in politics, but for our contribution to the human spirit." JFK

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Midge View Post
                                You know, according to this thread, you must have drugged because it is statistically unlikely that he was tired.
                                That is not boredom, that is narcolepsy, which if you must know, comes from lack of sleep. Jesus.
                                "We, too, will be remembered not for victories or defeats in battle or in politics, but for our contribution to the human spirit." JFK

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by goodlife View Post
                                  Wait...what? Where are you quoting this from?
                                  I was looking for this post as well. I saw it on this thread to quote it, but it went poof somewhere.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by MoonLadyIsis View Post
                                    I was looking for this post as well. I saw it on this thread to quote it, but it went poof somewhere.
                                    Post #173
                                    ~ Citizens for a Kinder, Gentler COTH...our mantra: Be nice. ~

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Calamber View Post
                                      That is not boredom, that is narcolepsy, which if you must know, comes from lack of sleep. Jesus.
                                      Pretty sure Midge was being sarcastic.
                                      http://www.tbhsa.com/index.html

                                      Originally Posted by JSwan
                                      I love feral children. They taste like chicken.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Calamber View Post
                                        That is not boredom, that is narcolepsy, which if you must know, comes from lack of sleep. Jesus.
                                        It was sarcasm. Calm down.

                                        ETA: MyGiantPony, sorry. I didn't scroll down before posting.
                                        "IT'S NOT THE MOUNTAIN WE CONQUER, BUT OURSELVES." SIR EDMUND HILLARYMember of the "Someone Special To Me Serves In The Military" Clique

                                        Comment


                                        • I have a horse with narcolepsy and he will fall on to his knees but with catch himself before he goes down. He HAS NEVER fallen down and flung himself around pooping. That is not symptoms if a narcoleptic horse.
                                          Dog hair, it's whats for dinner

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