• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Horse Ridden by Keenan Dropping at WEF yesterday?

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Star's Ascent, it does make you less qualified to comment on the goings-on within barns on the A circuit. Sorry, but that's true. Sorry you don't like it. Commenting on riding and conformation is different than throwing a junior under the bus because you're speculating about something when it's in a situation you admit you're not familiar with.

    There is a huge difference between saying "I thought [some horse] looked off behind." and going ZOMG PEOPLE ARE DRUGGING!!!1!1! based on a freaking rumor and then when provided with both a statement from the rider AND some information from someone who would actually know the situation, ignoring that, clutching your pearls, and bemoaning the state of all these drugged-to-the-gills hunters.

    I've never been a log roller and I don't go commenting on whether log rollers drug themselves up or not because I don't know. Same thing...
    http://www.youtube.com/user/supershorty628
    Proudly blogging for The Chronicle of the Horse!

    Comment


    • I never through a junior under a bus. Where did I comment at all about the whole bee sting situation? I commented on the ability of the horses to be turned out. If I did throw the junior under the bus by all means show me where as I must have been having an out of body experience and don't recall writing anything to do with her. Neither have I commented on the drugging situation. That is for sure something I have not seen or experienced so I have no comment on that.

      And even though I didn't ride with the trainers I was around to see how things operated.

      Comment


      • Yeah.. But here's the thing, I ride, I show, I jump, I know what a good rider looks like. I know what good equitation is. Your analogy doesn't quite work since I do the same things, just not at the level that you all might because I can't afford to (have things like a mortgage, dogs, horses to support, not much extra money since neither of us have fancy high paying jobs) Good riding is good riding no matter what level you are riding at. So someone at the local level can still know what good riding looks like. Just because we don't show there doesn't mean we don't go, don't watch, don't learn and don't know.

        Well the comment that went to just disappeared.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Star's Ascent View Post
          Yeah.. But here's the thing, I ride, I show, I jump, I know what a good rider looks like. I know what good equitation is. Your analogy doesn't quite work since I do the same things, just not at the level that you all might because I can't afford to (have things like a mortgage, dogs, horses to support, not much extra money since neither of us have fancy high paying jobs) Good riding is good riding no matter what level you are riding at. So someone at the local level can still know what good riding looks like. Just because we don't show there doesn't mean we don't go, don't watch, don't learn and don't know.

          Well the comment that went to just disappeared.
          But it DOES mean you don't know. Yes, you might know how to watch and you might know what's being judged but it DOESN'T mean you know what goes on in the barns, based on one experience at an "A" show barn with no turnout.

          I watch and read about dressage, but you don't see me on the dressage forum commenting about things I don't know about.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Star's Ascent View Post
            Yeah.. But here's the thing, I ride, I show, I jump, I know what a good rider looks like. I know what good equitation is. Your analogy doesn't quite work since I do the same things, just not at the level that you all might because I can't afford to (have things like a mortgage, dogs, horses to support, not much extra money since neither of us have fancy high paying jobs) Good riding is good riding no matter what level you are riding at. So someone at the local level can still know what good riding looks like. Just because we don't show there doesn't mean we don't go, don't watch, don't learn and don't know.

            Well the comment that went to just disappeared.
            Yeah, I decided I wasn't being that funny referencing Dance Moms so I ditched it.

            And I think it's a little silly to pretend that this thread is about "good riding" when, as I said before, it's pretty much a bunch of adults throwing a junior under the bus based on a rumor.

            Tha Ridge just said what I was about to get at.
            http://www.youtube.com/user/supershorty628
            Proudly blogging for The Chronicle of the Horse!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Star's Ascent View Post
              Yeah.. But here's the thing, I ride, I show, I jump, I know what a good rider looks like. I know what good equitation is. Your analogy doesn't quite work since I do the same things, just not at the level that you all might because I can't afford to (have things like a mortgage, dogs, horses to support, not much extra money since neither of us have fancy high paying jobs) Good riding is good riding no matter what level you are riding at. So someone at the local level can still know what good riding looks like. Just because we don't show there doesn't mean we don't go, don't watch, don't learn and don't know.

              Well the comment that went to just disappeared.
              How does this thread have anything to do with good riding? There's no doubt Lillie is an incredible rider.
              .

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                Originally posted by Star's Ascent View Post
                Yeah.. But here's the thing, I ride, I show, I jump, I know what a good rider looks like. I know what good equitation is. Your analogy doesn't quite work since I do the same things, just not at the level that you all might because I can't afford to (have things like a mortgage, dogs, horses to support, not much extra money since neither of us have fancy high paying jobs) Good riding is good riding no matter what level you are riding at. So someone at the local level can still know what good riding looks like. Just because we don't show there doesn't mean we don't go, don't watch, don't learn and don't know.

                Well the comment that went to just disappeared.

                I wouldn't say this thread has to do with good riding (Lillie Keenan's equitation is AMAZING, no doubt about it - she wouldn't be collecting all those Big Eq titles if she was a horrible rider) but rather may question the horsemanship and ethics of some trainers and riders that were involved in this situation (and ones that weren't), on more than just the drugging issue.

                Nobody is doubting your ability to understand how to ride a horse, but the politics and ins-and-outs of the A/AA circuit are pretty unbelievable and hard to understand if you haven't been there. Not everyone is a drug user - then every test would turn up positive. But it is present, in some amount which is probably impossible to determine.

                Comment


                • Why is it that because you don't use drugs or your old world trainer doesn't you get upset if someone else has a different opinion? Do you know what goes on in every barn? Enjoy your happy experience.
                  The fact is that drugging in the competitive horseshow world exists whether you want to believe it or not.
                  I'm sure people would have been very upset if before Lance's story came out anyone would have said that he was using illegal drugs. Livestrong bracelets, the whole cancer story, etc. That is why it was so difficult for the people working with him who knew the facts to tell the story. People will not believe it. We have the same here, everyone loves winners and the cute stories behind them and they don't want to know some of the facts.

                  Comment


                  • Because apparently my riding credentials in some way affect my ability to make observations about the barns I have experience with and their turnout. I was just making a simple comment about the barns I have been at and someone wanted came after me for making an observation and wanted those commenting to give their credentials. So to me that implies if you don't show on the A circuit you have no business commenting
                    So since others gave their credentials I gave mine. Sure I don't know all the little intricacies with those barns but I was out there way more than their girls were and saw everyday how they handled their turnouts. Turnout is all I was talking about in my original comment. I wasn't the one that asked for everyone's credentials so that they could be taken seriously. That's ridiculous and had nothing to do with what I was commenting on.

                    Comment


                    • Stung by a bee, not stung by a bee. I think my absolute favorite part is that grooms are now down as "trainers". And the reason is because my lawyer said so.

                      So just WTF does a trainer train? As far as I can see they can't even run a barn or otherwise they wouldn't be naming the groom as trainer. Oh that's right, nothing to see here. Business as usual. Here's something, if your trainer is replaced at one of the biggest shows and group of shows in the world by the groom, then I will suspect you're an idiot. And maybe I should just pay the groom your fees. But actually what I'd do is leave. Because as an owner that's what I'd do.If You can't stand up for the integrity of your barn, then what business do you have calling yourself a trainer. Blame the help. Classy.

                      Bee sting. Dropping to the ground is the 2nd thing horses usually do after a bee sting. The first is usually exploding in some form. You know provided said horse has all his senses at the time. If I see one just drop what I don't think straight away is bee sting. But whatever.

                      Terri
                      COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

                      "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Equilibrium View Post

                        So just WTF does a trainer train? As far as I can see they can't even run a barn or otherwise they wouldn't be naming the groom as trainer. Oh that's right, nothing to see here. Business as usual. Here's something, if your trainer is replaced at one of the biggest shows and group of shows in the world by the groom, then I will suspect you're an idiot. And maybe I should just pay the groom your fees. But actually what I'd do is leave. Because as an owner that's what I'd do.If You can't stand up for the integrity of your barn, then what business do you have calling yourself a trainer. Blame the help. Classy.

                        Terri
                        Seriously, have you read the usef definition of trainer? It's the adult responsible for the care of the horse at the show. In this case, the person who takes care of the horse is the groom.

                        The coach is the person who trains/rides/teaches etc.
                        .

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Big_Grey_hunter View Post
                          Seriously, have you read the usef definition of trainer? It's the adult responsible for the care of the horse at the show. In this case, the person who takes care of the horse is the groom.

                          The coach is the person who trains/rides/teaches etc.
                          You are mincing words.. I believe everyone knows the intent of the USEF rule.
                          People do not pay training fees to grooms or barn managers. Grooms and barn managers do not decide to medicate horses without the knowledge or approval of the BNT who employs them, and those who do are not employed for long.

                          If USEF continues to stick it's head in the sand, then who can blame BNT's or anyone else from taking advantage of the "loophole". Taking advantage of a loophole is a time honored tradition, unfortunately, and not only in the horse business.

                          The horse may have been stung by a bee. Apparently, no one here witnessed the incident except for the rider who gave an interview to COTH.

                          For those wondering why the freak out about this incident, remember , it hasn't been long since the pony died, without consequences to the party responsible, and I think people are still a bit raw about that debacle (of course there may be dingbats chiming in as well, and it is a bit strange get so worked up when the facts are so sketchy ,but I think most are well meaning).

                          Comment


                          • If I were a distant owner of a horse, there's no way I would sign the form. Obviously I'd hire the best trainer I could, who I would hope would not dope, but would I trust that enough to put my name on the line... probably not unless I saw day to day care. Obviously you are trusting them with the horses welfare, but you never can be certain unless you are there all the time.


                            Originally posted by leyla25 View Post
                            Drugs plus hrs of lunging/riding is the perfect prep for success. This is why they have to have chiropractors, massages, hocks injected regularly etc to undo the damage.

                            My horse, a $2k OTTB gets massages and chiro work. I don't even show. Apparently I just like being broke!

                            Comment


                            • I don't know anything about this horse or the situation. And I'm not showing on the A circuit so I apparently have no right to have an opinion but I'm gonna say it anyway.

                              I'm really bothered that some trainers find it necessary to have the grooms sign as trainer on the entry form. The groom may do the physical care if the horse but they are NOT making decisions about the care of the horse. If they were making decisions about care, feed, training, etc then they would make the big bucks. "Care and custody" doesn't mean the person who mucks the stall.

                              The only reason I can think of to have your groom sign as trainer is to have a fall guy if the horse tests positive for something. If the groom really were responsible then he'd be up there getting his picture taken when the horse wins.

                              IMHO the trainers need to grow a set and take responsibility for what happens in their barns. Having the person earning the least money in the organization as the person chosen to be the fall guy is unconscionable.

                              Like I said, I'm not showing at A shows these days, so clearly my opinion has no wort, but I do have a conscience and a set of values and that's how I feel

                              Comment


                              • Seriously, have you read the usef definition of trainer? It's the adult responsible for the care of the horse at the show. In this case, the person who takes care of the horse is the groom.
                                Way back when I showed, our trainer (who was in charge of coaching, arranging care, vet coordination etc.) signed the form. Not the groom. She was "responsible" as she gave direction to the groom. Now I can see the definition of trainer applying to a person at the barn that is never at the ring, but makes direct decisions on feed, meds, what goes on back at the barn. So whether it is staff, the owner, the coach- whoever makes the call to give a horse some bute or a new supplement should sign the form.

                                I do think that the drugtesting is a double edged sword. You can lose a lot of business for a minor error that one of your grooms execute. That's not really helpful for protecting animal welfare. But when animal welfare does come to play (that poor pony in the NYT)... something really should happen on behalf of participants.

                                You don't have to be in the sport to question the welfare of the participants (and I think probably 95% are just fine). But I dunno, the level of interest and the ummm, creativity in methods of calming are going to raise eyebrows among most horsepeople. I've seen it locally.... and have to believe it trickled down from somewhere.

                                Comment


                                • wow--just think if horse racing interpreted the definition of "trainer" that way--Dutrow would still be in business. Sounds ridiculous to me coming from a racing background.

                                  Comment


                                  • Take a look at the entries of the top Grand Prix riders- Laura Kraut, Mclain Ward, Darragh Kenny, and Reed Kessler are the first to come to mind. They all have their managers as the trainer. In fact, I would say they somewhat started the practice. Not a strictly hunter practice.

                                    Comment


                                    • Big Grey Hunter - the definition of "trainer" is more broad than was in your post: It is:
                                      "Any adult, or adults who has the responsibility for the care, training, custody or
                                      performance of a horse."


                                      Yes, the groom may have responsibility for care and possibly custody. He/She does not have responsibility for training or the performance. And lets remember that most grooms do not have much decision making authority in terms of how the horse is managed: type/quantity of feed, what days it is worked, how much it jumps, whether it needs lunged on show days, whether its in need of supplements or joint injections, etc. MAYBE a groom would give a horse a shot, but that groom doesn't make the decision that it is needed.
                                      I think most people can probably agree that it was not the intent of USEF to have a bunch of grooms, some of which barely speak English, signing entry forms. And maybe we can agree that they could do a better job in the definition.
                                      We don't get less brave; we get a bigger sense of self-preservation........

                                      Comment


                                      • Exactly!!!
                                        If the trainer can't sign their own name as trainer then that in itself is a huge problem.
                                        Well said Terri!!!!

                                        QUOTE=Equilibrium;6858090]Stung by a bee, not stung by a bee. I think my absolute favorite part is that grooms are now down as "trainers". And the reason is because my lawyer said so.

                                        So just WTF does a trainer train? As far as I can see they can't even run a barn or otherwise they wouldn't be naming the groom as trainer. Oh that's right, nothing to see here. Business as usual. Here's , if your trainer is replaced at one of the biggest shows and group of shows in the world by the groom, then I will suspect you're an idiot. And maybe I should just pay the groom your fees. But actually what I'd do is leave. Because as an owner that's what I'd do.If You can't stand up for the integrity of your barn, then what business do you have calling yourself a trainer. Blame the help. Classy.

                                        Bee sting. Dropping to the ground is the 2nd thing horses usually do after a bee sting. The first is usually exploding in some form. You know provided said horse has all his senses at the time. If I see one just drop what I don't think straight away is bee sting. But whatever.

                                        Terri[/QUOTE]

                                        Comment

                                        • Original Poster

                                          Originally posted by Piggiejump View Post
                                          Take a look at the entries of the top Grand Prix riders- Laura Kraut, Mclain Ward, Darragh Kenny, and Reed Kessler are the first to come to mind. They all have their managers as the trainer. In fact, I would say they somewhat started the practice. Not a strictly hunter practice.

                                          So this makes it okay? Just because the top Grand Prix riders may have their managers signing as trainer that makes it okay for everyone to do?

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X