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Why is Hunter judging not transparent like Dressage judging?

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  • Originally posted by RugBug View Post
    Actually, I was pointing out the opposite of what you took my post to mean. I quoted someone who was indicating that hunter judges are only judging 8-12 things in 2 minutes. I was just pointing out that hunter judging is A LOT more than just 8-12 "things" to judge. I didn't actually say anything about dressage judging.
    OK, then we agree.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Blinky View Post
      Alrighty-what does this mean?
      WBRG

      I used to just put WR, meaning 'wrong ring'. It used to be a notation for a warmblood who had the temerity to leave the jumper ring and attempt to be a hunter.
      *****
      You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by RaeHughes View Post
        A poster raised the issue of the # of people required to "add up the scores" - dont you use a computer programme? They are readily available on the net - even our very large shows would have no more than 2/3 and most have 1. It would be relatively easy to standardise the scoring sheet to be computerised and then it is just tapping #s in.

        As a corollary, I am also competing my older dog in obedience - there can be, at the big shows, upwards of 60-70 dogs in each grade. Usual rule, each dog starts off with the maximum points and then lose marks for wide turns, crooked sits etc. Every handler receives a score sheet written by the judge - is it informative, yes (again interpretation). Does it slow the class down? No.
        Both dog obedience and dressage are judged 'by movement'. You get a score for each movement, independent of the next. So you can score each movement, then total at the end. Thats not how hunters is judged. You could have 7 perfect fences and blow it on the last fence, and be in last. Hunters score the entire course as a whole. So it wouldn't work to score each jump/end of the ring/line and use a computer program to total, each jump is NOT independent of the others. It would completely change the way hunters is judged, and not in a good way.
        .

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        • The hunter (and equ) ring has been subjective since the dawns of the circuit and will continue to be. I learned this very quickly when I started showing 20 years ago. There was one judge who LOVED my pony. If she was the judge I knew we were most likely going to win every single class unless I messed up. Fair? No. But neither is another judge who was very well known for showing preference to one specific pony look -- dishy head, build small and grey.

          It's how it is. Don't like it, choose a different discipline.
          aka Amanda
          "For by the love that guides my pen, I know great horses live again."

          Comment


          • Being snarky here: There is no way a posted scorecard will ever happen - because then, the trainer will have to tell the rider the truth - basically that they rode like crap (just like the judge says) instead of "Oh, it's just polictics - that trainer/rider/horse is a BNT/favorored rider/more expensive horse. Or they had a more expensive horse/saddle/clothes. And then the said trainer will have to actaully teach wonder-client how to ride.

            On the serious side, I find most judges are pretty fair. If you need an opinion other than your own or your trainers at a major A show, then maybe it's time to head back to the schooling shows for some more education. In my opinion, the schooling show judges should be giving feedback. But at a major show? No way.
            The truth is always in the middle.

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            • Another comment on Hunter judging. Years ago, I watched one of the most amazing Under Saddle classes ever. It was an AO class. There were 7 horses in the ring, including two that were previous year natational champions. Every horse was absolutely incredible, and everyone of them was perfect and could have won that day. It literally came down to what the judge liked. TB or WB type. The 7th place horse could have just as easily been first.

              That is the difference between Hunter and Dressage judging. In Hunter, you are competing against your true peers (hopefully) and the best ride/round should win that day, and usually does. It's a single performance on a single day over a unique course. You are being judged on your performance in that particular moment.

              But in dressage, you compete against an ideal, with a pre-planned and known ride. You are guaging improvement.

              Scribe or no scribe, that is a very big difference.
              The truth is always in the middle.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Thoroughbred1201 View Post
                Being snarky here: There is no way a posted scorecard will ever happen - because then, the trainer will have to tell the rider the truth - basically that they rode like crap (just like the judge says) instead of "Oh, it's just polictics - that trainer/rider/horse is a BNT/favorored rider/more expensive horse. Or they had a more expensive horse/saddle/clothes. And then the said trainer will have to actaully teach wonder-client how to ride.
                I realize that this is just a snark, and certainly not the first one in this vein that someone has posted with regard to hunters. But, you know...I have been doing hunters for the better part of 35 years, and I can count on one hand the number of times I came out of the ring and my trainer said, "That was perfect."

                Pretty much every time I went over my round with my trainer, I got told what I did wrong. Sometimes rather emphatically. In fact, I can recall quite clearly some 23 years later being reduced to tears by said trainer, who chewed me out ringside for adding in a broken line in the Medal when it was August and I only needed one more win (yes, before qualifying was based on points). So I don't quite buy that clients are being told that politics are the reason they don't go home with all blue ribbons.

                Trainers who win get more clients. Trainers who make excuses generally have temporary clients who either move on or get discouraged and leave the sport.

                For what it's worth, I always adored showing under Michael Page, who always posted his cards. It was a great way to see my round from the judges box (once I figured out the shorthand). And when I judge, I try to write my cards knowing that someone else beside me is going to see my notes.
                Life would be infinitely better if pinatas suddenly appeared throughout the day.

                Comment


                • A fancy judges card does not a good judge make. Jus' sayin. I've seen some fancy looking cards that unfortunately rarely got the order right.
                  www.midatlanticeq.com
                  Mid-Atlantic Equitation Festival,Scholarships and College Fair
                  November 11-13, 2016

                  Comment


                  • Also want to add that the main reason that judges cards stopped being posted outside of the fact that most judges would prefer they not, was trainer dismay that someone may write on the card things like "bad jumper" "moves like trojan" etc when they were trying to sell the horse. This was concern that a possible buyer would take one opinion to heart and abandon a possible purchase.And lets remember that it is just one person's opinion
                    www.midatlanticeq.com
                    Mid-Atlantic Equitation Festival,Scholarships and College Fair
                    November 11-13, 2016

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by chunky munky View Post
                      Also want to add that the main reason that judges cards stopped being posted outside of the fact that most judges would prefer they not, was trainer dismay that someone may write on the card things like "bad jumper" "moves like trojan" etc when they were trying to sell the horse. This was concern that a possible buyer would take one opinion to heart and abandon a possible purchase.
                      And that was long before the internet helped spread the word in the blink of an eye! It would be a million times worse now.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by chunky munky View Post
                        Also want to add that the main reason that judges cards stopped being posted outside of the fact that most judges would prefer they not, was trainer dismay that someone may write on the card things like "bad jumper" "moves like trojan" etc when they were trying to sell the horse. This was concern that a possible buyer would take one opinion to heart and abandon a possible purchase.And lets remember that it is just one person's opinion
                        This is not a persuasive argument. If one is willing to judge or evaluate (which is entirely different from an ongoing training relationship) then one should be sufficiently committed to one's judgment to have it made public.

                        If trainers are that afraid of a client hearing a judge's opinion then perhaps a) the judge is right b) they have not made a persuasive case to the client and or c) they have not been honest about the prospective purchase.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by beowulf View Post
                          Because it is subjective. Also agree with what NCRider said about it being a little biased - I started hunters but not have participated in many years and my knowledge could very well be outdated, but I bitterly and clearly remember that it was judged entirely on who had the better attire, who had the fancy saddle and fancy pony, and who was the most "pretty" overall to look at. DR is very different - it is systematically penalized by your faults/errors/errant riding, not necessarily by if you're a BNT or if you've got a "pretty" horse.
                          Dressage is just as subjective and biased. (Very biased or barely biased, your opinion). Yes, you may or may not get some worthwhile comments but the judge knows if a BNT is on the horse. Yes, you are given information on what they are looking for but it is still the judge's opinion. If you don't like subjective judging then you need to get into a horse sport that is graded on time and faults and I have even seen subjective calls made in jumpers. Train hard, have fun, appreciate your horse! It all seems to work out in the end.

                          "it is systematically penalized by your faults/errors/errant riding, not necessarily by if you're a BNT or if you've got a "pretty" horse." There may be a system to the penalties but how those penalties are applied is subjective. That is actually what you are asking the judge to do. You may or may not get more points for being on a pretty horse but you definitely will get more points for a better moving horse over a better trained horse. They are both subjective sports when it comes down to it.
                          Justice will only be achieved when those who are not injured by crime feel as indignant as those who are. - King Soloman (970-928 B.C.)

                          Comment


                          • Yes, and in dressage the judge doesn't even have to crane his or her neck to see who is applauding at the back gait or recognize a particular whoop as you can usually have your test read and get someone who will make a difference to read it.

                            Years ago I was trying to get a certain score to qualify for something. I had shown once that day with my mom reading the test and gotten like 0.1% below what I needed. As I was getting ready to go into the ring for the second test with the same judge, my trainer snatched the test book out of my mom's hand, strode into the ride, waved to the judge, and proceeded to read. I got my score by a comfortable margin and it wasn't a better test.
                            The Evil Chem Prof

                            Comment


                            • Another resurrected thread from the vaults that's already been discussed to death.

                              Why not start a new one with slightly different twist instead of bumping one up then deleting the bump post as soon as somebody replys?
                              When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                              The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by phoebetrainer View Post
                                Really interesting to slip over here from eventing land. Every now and then, when I have a suitable horse, I will do some hunters. Here in NZ hunter rounds are judged by a judge, usually assisted by a writer. Cards are posted. Each jump is marked using a short hand which the judge or some one is happy to explain to newbies. I can usually work out exactly what the judge saw and why I scored where I did. I've never noticed a delay between riders because of scoring.
                                If the Kiwis do it, why can't this happen in the US?

                                It seems to me that the reason one would go to a show - especially schooling shows - where you're judged (be it Dressage, Hunter, etc), is to see how you fare compared to other combinations and to get the judge's opinion. That's what you're paying for and the reason you're going to show, is it not? (unless you're bringing a greenie for exposure of course...). Your coach can give you feedback of course but I don't see why "more feedback" (aka from the judge) would be a bad thing?

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by findeight View Post
                                  Another resurrected thread from the vaults that's already been discussed to death.

                                  Why not start a new one with slightly different twist instead of bumping one up then deleting the bump post as soon as somebody replys?
                                  Yeah, what's with deleting the bump post? It was a totally innocuous comment on-topic?
                                  ~Veronica
                                  "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                                  http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                                  Comment


                                  • Don't mind when an older post is bumped up because it's pertinent, even pulled a few up myself. But I say why in my bump post and they are pertinent. We weren't discussing this and there is nothing to say that was not said in that post and it is a tired much discussed over many years subject.

                                    Somebody has new thoughts or insight ir wants to start a rule change proposal in motion? start a new thread. I didn't catch the bump post in this one, as usual, they typically disappear real quick.
                                    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                                    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                                    Comment


                                    • Feedback is not the reason you should be showing at hunter shows. A horse show is an event where the judge is hired to place the horses in the right order. Plan and simple. My guess is that the reason shows are run that way in NZ is because they do not try to fit 50 classes in one ring per day. (just a guess here) I doubt they get the numbers that we do in the USA.
                                      www.midatlanticeq.com
                                      Mid-Atlantic Equitation Festival,Scholarships and College Fair
                                      November 11-13, 2016

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