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Why is Hunter judging not transparent like Dressage judging?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by inca View Post
    And scoring obviously has to be tailored for the class. BUT......
    It does bother me a little that I can pay $400 for a schooling show and have no idea why my horse (shown by my trainer) didn't get a ribbon even if she puts in a nice round. ... Did the judge fall asleep and miss her round entirely? Would be nice to have some clue as to the reason
    I know you were joking re: judge sleeping - but I just had to point out, this happened to us once a couple of years ago, on the A circuit here in Ontario. In the medium pony division, about 25-30 ponies.. an astute dad, while watching his kid go around, pointed out the judge was snoozing and we actually videotaped the judge (instead of the ponies) for about 4 trips, completely asleep! Never lifted his head.
    The biggest threat to Canadian national security: #45 potus

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    • #62
      Originally posted by justathought View Post
      All good answers here .... HOWEVER, there is no reason that - with a scribe - a hunter round could not provide comments that would serve as an aid to the rider/trainer/horse about what things were best and/or worse.
      Ditto!


      So greatful to get to ride!

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Janet View Post
        I think that may be the point. People used to dressage scores are used to using the comments on the test sheet as "education for the less experinced".

        When I am riding at a level I have been riding for years, I am rarely surprised much by either the scores or the comments - yep, yep, yep, oh really- I thought I DID have enough bend, yep, yep, that was generous, yep, yep, that was a bit harsh, yep, yep, etc.

        But when I am riding at a NEW level, I milk the comments and scores for all they are worth.

        It doesn't work that way for hunters. While you are still "uneducated", you need to have a different set of eyes (not you, not the judge) to tell you the specifics about what was good or bad about your round.
        I totally agree with parts of this, that's why I think a written standard of what we expect ranges of score to mean would be helpful. I also think a culture of learning about this sport is useful to, but lot of people want it to be a hobby, they are happy enough to not know the details and conversely, training them on how the sport is scored might not be the highest priority for some trainers (which is different from learning why you didn't win that day).

        Then when you are listening to classic scores being called out (and let's face it, that happens a lot more now) you can have some correlation to the number as a learning process. That's something that doesn't really involve a change in process or a rule change, just some effort into writing down a standard at the national level. Not easy, but do-able. I mean we talk about horses being judged against the class and not an ideal, but there is definitely an ideal trip and a rough idea of what a trip should score. It's not universal but the best trip at a our local show is not going to be a 93, safe to say. I mean it *could* happen, but I've seen those scores and generally breaking the low 80's is highest you go.

        However any way you cut it, except for the bottom and the top scores, there are going to be a bunch of tradeoffs and people need to learn that - if a great moving horse gets a bit deep to a fence, but still jumps in good style even though you can tell it's because he has a pretty good pilot ... does that beat a horse who found 8 but wasn't a great stylist over the fence and how does this compare to the horse that found 8, was the best stylist of the bunch,l but moved like a washing machine? I can make a case for all 3 of those being a 80-82. How you would place those horses depends a lot on the judge's preference.

        But a key difference between a new level in dressage and moving from 3'0 to 3'6 in the hunters is there really isn't any new elements introduced. If you understood that not making the step look relaxed at 3'0 will cost you, you should know it still applies equally at 3'6. It's harder to make it at 3'6, but not making it still has the same weight in penalty, ditto for chipping, movement, quality of jump, etc.. The level of difficulty in executing the task goes up, but the tasks don't change, and that is very different from moving up in dressage.
        Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

        Comment


        • #64
          I can usually tell what type of ribbon I will get after a round, but I would still love to see the judge's cards even without a score or ranking. Just to see what was noted on the card would be informative. This would involve no extra work other than pinning the card to the bulletin board.

          It may help the people who ARE mystified by their results to see that the judge noted a big chip at the second jump, etc.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by December View Post
            This would involve no extra work other than pinning the card to the bulletin board.
            .
            And the judge making sure their notes to differentiate the sea of bays are politically correct. Poopsie might not like to see "#425 - bay, big thighs" next to any comments. :teehee:

            (and yes, I might resemble that remark. But I wouldn't take offense. My thighs are big. Enormous, in fact. and )
            Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
            Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Lucassb View Post
              I always find it hilarious when people insist that the judge "always picks the expensive horse."

              Last time I checked, no one was writing their horse's purchase price on their entry blanks. I guess it's just not as much fun to write, "the judge always picks the nicer mover/jumper (which tends to cost more.")
              Really? I always write my horse's purchase price on his ass with a sharpie before I go into the ring. my trainer taught me that
              Save a life...be an organ donor! Visit www.Transplantbuddies.org

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              • #67
                If you are mystified by a big chip you need to get educated at local shows and with a new trainer. Again-A HORSE SHOW IS NOT A CLINIC. You pay to be placed in a group. If you don't place, ask your trainer or become better educated. Judges are paid to sort the BEST ones, not the chaff of the class. And if you don't think your performance was poor, than you don't belong at a recognized horse show.
                www.midatlanticeq.com
                Mid-Atlantic Equitation Festival,Scholarships and College Fair
                November 11-13, 2016

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                • #68
                  Is he a good example of a hunter judge?
                  Originally posted by copper1 View Post
                  Micahel Page used to post his cards-always educational! The jumps come up quick in a hunter course and judges have each devised their own shorthand to mark each effort and some of that would be real hard to decipher without the judge explaining! At the Arabian Sport Horse Nationals the cards are posted, again educational if you can understand them!

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Honestly -- I am surprised that so many here object to the idea that a hunter judge with a scribe provide feedback -- Most of the judges I know actually mark there cards with symbols now -- it would allow them to stop looking down to do that if they had a scribe. And it would not take a moment longer than it does now. Yes - judging is subjective and wouldn't it be nice to know whether the judge liked the jump, the pace, the overall picture.

                    A ribbon or lack thereof is not feedback, its results. A score is a relative ranking - again not feedback. Your coach/trainer gives feedback but NOT the judges viewpoint - frankly that is what you are paying for at a show -- why not get a sense of what they thought

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                    • #70
                      People it is very simple. Aren't you all used to number grades from school? In the 90's is an A. In the 80's is a B. In the 70's is a C. You know this grading system. If you score in the 70's and you found all 8 jumps it most likely means that your horse is not a hunter type and/or a bad jumper. Yes i know it is hard to accept thatDobbin is not a champion, but don't make the judge tell you that he never gets his forearm even close to the vertical and he insults the ground when he moves. Sometimes we just need to give a score and not insult someones well loved horse.
                      www.midatlanticeq.com
                      Mid-Atlantic Equitation Festival,Scholarships and College Fair
                      November 11-13, 2016

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                      • #71
                        Would be nice to get a score instead of nothing. At the local shows around here, you never hear a score. So, if you win, you don't know if you got a 70 and everyone else got a 50. If you don't ribbon, maybe the ones that did all got 85-90 and you got an 80. Who knows. And really, maybe the judge WAS asleep during your round. I have seen a horse pinned IN THE WRONG DIVISION on more than on occasion. Doesn't exactly inspire confidence in the judging.


                        And not sure why such anger directed at people that are having a civil discussion! :-) Never hurts to have a respectful discussion of differing views. Sometimes it can even be helpful to attempt to see something from a different perspective.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          I've only done local hunter shows (and not for a couple of years now). The biggest issue I saw was that the lack of scores/comments/rankings (beyond handing out ribbons) was that it allowed lousy coaches to continue being lousy.

                          I saw riders who were really poorly coached put in poor performances. From the looks and sounds of things, they (and in the case of the juniors, their parents) were new to the sport and didn't seem to be able to judge their own performance or that of their peers. Instead, they listened to what their coach was telling them, which was that the judge didn't like Appies or that some other rider's trainer was more famous or whatever. These people didn't know any better and were buying it hook, line and sinker.

                          I'm sure that eventually these people figured things out and got a better coach (if they didn't give up and leave the sport entirely), and sure, they should probably have done their homework and chosen a better coach in the first place. But they were paying to be at a horse show, and paying to be evaluated by a judge and it wasn't really happening. If they had been at a dressage show, a judge could have said 'work on the basics' and if they'd been at a horse trial, a TD could have talked to them about dangerous riding. The way things work in the hunter ring right now, I think it can really support mediocre coaches and fosters rider dependence on those coaches.
                          Founder of the "I met a COTHer in a foreign country" clique!

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by inca View Post
                            It does bother me a little that I can pay $400 for a schooling show and have no idea why my horse (shown by my trainer) didn't get a ribbon even if she puts in a nice round.
                            You are allowed to ask to see the cards and ask to talk to the judge. If you need feedback from the judge why not do one or both of those things.

                            It worries me that your trainer has no idea why you placed (or did not place) where you did.

                            I am not sure why the confusion about the sometimes getting a ribbon on an OK day and not getting a ribbon on a good day. That happens at a dressage show too.
                            Are you really not watching a single other competitor in your division so you have no idea how the rest of the division is riding?

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by chunky munky View Post
                              People it is very simple. Aren't you all used to number grades from school? In the 90's is an A. In the 80's is a B. In the 70's is a C. You know this grading system. If you score in the 70's and you found all 8 jumps it most likely means that your horse is not a hunter type and/or a bad jumper. Yes i know it is hard to accept thatDobbin is not a champion, but don't make the judge tell you that he never gets his forearm even close to the vertical and he insults the ground when he moves. Sometimes we just need to give a score and not insult someones well loved horse.
                              No it's not that simple. The score tells you if you we're average, above average, etc... But it does not tell you on what things or where. When I grade my students at school I do NOT simply write a number at the top of the page, I mark the entire exam. When they look at it they know exactly where and what their weaknesses were. It's called feedback and it is given so that they can work on the things that were problems.

                              There is a difference between honest constructive feedback and cruelty. I can tell a student that they had little or no grasp of a particular concept on exam without telling them that I laughed at how bad their answer was. Just like there is a difference between saying a horse is not a good mover and that he "insults the ground"

                              Maybe I know a wired group of people, but most could care less whether they got a ribbon or not. Instead, what they care about is what they can improve. Sure, the trainer can give feedback-- but what I am really curious about is feedback from the judge whose opinion I have paid for.

                              It's not that difficult- I have judged other subjective sports. You can't judge without noting strengths and weaknesses and there was always enough in my notes to inform a competitor. With a scribe there would have been much more and it would have been legible.

                              I am not suggesting judges discuss their relative platings, but comments about the round could easily be noted and shared if we had the desire and will to do it

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by inca View Post
                                Would be nice to get a score instead of nothing. At the local shows around here, you never hear a score. So, if you win, you don't know if you got a 70 and everyone else got a 50. If you don't ribbon, maybe the ones that did all got 85-90 and you got an 80.
                                But, scores are only comparable at the same level of shows. You absolutely cannot compare an 80 at a local show with an 80 at a rated show (unless by "local" you meant distance rather than "level" that the term is associated with here). It's nice if they do, but poor local folks would probably be sad/upset to be winning classes with scores in the 60s...which is what the truth would be at a lot of them.
                                Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
                                Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

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                                • #76
                                  Originally posted by Too Old for Pony Club View Post
                                  I've only done local hunter shows (and not for a couple of years now). The biggest issue I saw was that the lack of scores/comments/rankings (beyond handing out ribbons) was that it allowed lousy coaches to continue being lousy.

                                  I saw riders who were really poorly coached put in poor performances. From the looks and sounds of things, they (and in the case of the juniors, their parents) were new to the sport and didn't seem to be able to judge their own performance or that of their peers. Instead, they listened to what their coach was telling them, which was that the judge didn't like Appies or that some other rider's trainer was more famous or whatever. These people didn't know any better and were buying it hook, line and sinker.
                                  This is sad, but true. If your trainer says things like this, get a new trainer. I remember listening to an ammy complain about the politics and it just made me laugh. Her trainer buys lots of horses and judges some of the biggest shows. That's a one/two for political gifting.

                                  But they were paying to be at a horse show, and paying to be evaluated by a judge and it wasn't really happening.
                                  They were being evaluated in the way hunters are evaluated at the horse show. I think there is a lot that can be improved about horse shows in general, but the bottom line is they are a money making business and as long as managers want to see 175 trips and 5 under saddles run through each of their rings, the judge is hard pressed to get the horses on the right cards, yet alone give feedback.
                                  *****
                                  You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

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                                  • #77
                                    Originally posted by Too Old for Pony Club View Post
                                    I've only done local hunter shows (and not for a couple of years now). The biggest issue I saw was that the lack of scores/comments/rankings (beyond handing out ribbons) was that it allowed lousy coaches to continue being lousy.
                                    How is it the judge's responsibility to tell someone their trainer sucks?

                                    But they were paying to be at a horse show, and paying to be evaluated by a judge and it wasn't really happening.
                                    They are NOT paying to have their riding "evaluated" by the judged. They are paying to be judged...a.k.a. ranked...against their competitors. The is what they got. You want "evaluation", you take a lesson/clinic.

                                    If they have a crappy trainer, the responsibility is on them. Newbies can do research, ask around, etc. Don't just pick a name out of the phone book. Our society so quickly shifts the blame to someone else. Blame does not rest with the judge here, or the show. It's rests with the parents/rider, if an adult.
                                    Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
                                    Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

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                                    • #78
                                      Didn't mean to give anyone the impression that my trainer never knows why my horse did or did not get a ribbon. As I clarified in a follow up post, there are only a FEW times that placings have been a real head scratcher. And I guess those times stick out in my mind. And coming from 20 years of dressage shows, it just seems odd to pay 3 or 4 times as much to show and to get so little feedback. I'm sure I will get used to it - LOL.

                                      Here is a quick example of what gets me wishing for something more than a ribbon or no ribbon...
                                      My mare goes in and puts in a nice round. Good spot on all 8 fences, gets her changes and is pretty relaxed during the entire round. Places 4th out of 10, which I have NO arguments about. Round was not so perfect that it is inconceivable that there were 3 rounds better than hers.

                                      VERY NEXT CLASS at the same show (same division against same horses), mare is not quite as consistent during this round. No horrible misses and she gets her changes. However, one line, she lands a bit more forward so needs a strong half halt to make it down the line. She reacts a tad to the half halt but does manage to get to a nice spot and jump out decently. So, 2 okay jumps but definitely less than ideal in the line (and that is being kind.) Places 2nd out of the same 10! Now, it is entirely possible the other 8 people that placed below her had a huge mistake in their round. Or, did the judge sneeze and miss the bobble in the line? Who really knows? It was a mystery to us why she placed better with a round that was most definitely of lesser quality.

                                      Definitely not a big deal - she probably ended up with the 2 ribbons she deserved. But, without seeing every other person's round, it seemed odd.

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        When I was a kid, the barn I rode at hosted a lot of hunter shows, and my mom worked off much of my entry fees by working as staff in the booth. Because of this tight connection, I was able to see (and sometimes collect even) quite a lot of judging cards of my classes.

                                        I loved it. It was great to see the shorthand used. It was excellent to correlate what I felt with what got written. And those cards where I won - - priceless!

                                        Of course the numbers are only meaningful in relation to the other entries in the class. That is something to understand about hunters. But it's good to see if you were right up there or if you got lucky because everyone else missed or whatever else. You know if you won with a 73 that you still have a lot of homework to do.

                                        All you who are saying it can't be done - bah. It totally can, and you don't have to do anything more than just post the existing cards.
                                        If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          I have been around horses in general long enough to recognize a crappy trainer. However, how do you propose parents who have NO CLUE about horses recognize that their kid's trainer sucks? Honest question. I know it is not the judge's responsibility. However, if you got the same type of comments from different judges for several horse shows in a row, the lightbulb might start to go on for a non-horsey parent. I don't see how more information can be a bad thing.

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