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Lease Pricing Question

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  • #21
    I am not sure it's "worth" paying for fanciness on a lease horse you have no intent on showing. So would I pay that price in your shoes? No, I'd lease something else. There are confidence horses that are plodders and will do the job of getting you feeling good without being "hack winners" (or former hack winners prior to a mystery unsoundness). I'm also uncomfortable taking responsibility for a horse that is unsound for an undiagnosed reason. But that's a whole nother issue.
    ~Veronica
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    • #22
      There are plenty of confidence builders out there that aren't the hack winner, but are sound, safe, and reasonably price. Don't waste that much money on something you're not going to show.
      Mendokuse

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      • #23
        [QUOTE=over the moon;6807669]Sorry, I'm confused... We're taking the horse's step into play? What horse doesn't have the stride to do 3'? And lead changes? Besides the fact that that's irrelevant because she's not showing... Those are some odd criteria for a lease. A 12' stride and a clean change do not (IMO) a 15k lease make. Those two things are a dime a dozen.

        Really? cause I sure cant find them - safe, enough step, nice change, easy, forgiving of mistakes, not a wild runaway, serviceably sound 3 ft horses?

        If anyone has them please send me details and video - I need a few of those at that price.

        And I would argue that they ARE very relevant. You cannot learn to gallop a course and measure the lines correctly and ride the right track and pace without a horse with the ability to do it.
        Dina
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        • #24
          I've got one. Safe and easy enough for grandma, more than enough step, gets the change in the air in the corner whichever you prefer, will jump from any absurd distance you put him at safely and smoothly, and he's the soundest horse in the barn. He's leased right now, of course

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          • #25
            I know several like that-- they're leased. The fancier ones for about the price given and the less fancy for less. You may have to look for them/use word of mount but the confidence building not fancy types are out there. In fact, they seem like the ones people are more likely to lease and not sell.
            ~Veronica
            "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
            http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

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            • #26
              Originally posted by toomanyponies View Post
              Really? cause I sure cant find them - safe, enough step, nice change, easy, forgiving of mistakes, not a wild runaway, serviceably sound 3 ft horses?

              If anyone has them please send me details and video - I need a few of those at that price.

              And I would argue that they ARE very relevant. You cannot learn to gallop a course and measure the lines correctly and ride the right track and pace without a horse with the ability to do it.
              I know lots! We're talking 3' not 4' here... most horses can comfortably maneuver a course of 3'. On a twelve foot stride. I'm not sure why you think that is so rare?

              Though to be fair, your first post mentioned two things: a 12' stride and a lead change. Those two things are REALLY not that rare. This coming from a very small horse community, so I imagine the numbers would be much higher elsewhere.

              Really, really confused why a 12' stride for a 3' course is being put on a pedestal. My 15.2hh 4yo mare jumps on a 12' stride just fine!

              And for the record, I said a nice change is irrelevant. A nice change is crucial for the show ring unless a horse can land it every single time. The OP doesn't want to show, so having a perfect change is really not necessary. She won't learn less on a horse with a sticky change than she would on a horse with a perfect change.

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              • #27
                She's lame enough to get spun out of the jog but not lame enough to stop jumping? Really?

                I tend not to be terribly trusting of "but she's always been sound doing X, Y, and Z despite factors A and B" and I would keep looking. It doesn't matter how fancy she is if she's not sound. A mild unsoundness issue is not sound. If you can see it in the jog, to me, it isn't even serviceably sound. And since we get vet checks to determine whether the horse is serviceably sound for purpose intended...

                Do you want to be held financially responsible for what amounts to an undiagnosed soundness issue that may or may not get worse during your lease? Vet fees, farriery, the works?
                "I'm not always sarcastic. Sometimes I'm asleep." - Harry Dresden

                Amy's Stuff - Rustic chic and country linens and decor
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                • #28
                  [QUOTE=toomanyponies;6808360]
                  Originally posted by over the moon View Post
                  Sorry, I'm confused... We're taking the horse's step into play? What horse doesn't have the stride to do 3'? And lead changes? Besides the fact that that's irrelevant because she's not showing... Those are some odd criteria for a lease. A 12' stride and a clean change do not (IMO) a 15k lease make. Those two things are a dime a dozen.

                  Really? cause I sure cant find them - safe, enough step, nice change, easy, forgiving of mistakes, not a wild runaway, serviceably sound 3 ft horses?

                  If anyone has them please send me details and video - I need a few of those at that price.

                  And I would argue that they ARE very relevant. You cannot learn to gallop a course and measure the lines correctly and ride the right track and pace without a horse with the ability to do it.
                  Yes, but we aren't talking about free here. The OP is considering paying 15K (plus upkeep) for a year with this horse. I would think that the lease would be more reasonable around 6K (plus upkeep), assuming the horse is as reliable and good as described.

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by Renn/aissance View Post
                    She's lame enough to get spun out of the jog but not lame enough to stop jumping? Really?

                    I tend not to be terribly trusting of "but she's always been sound doing X, Y, and Z despite factors A and B" and I would keep looking. It doesn't matter how fancy she is if she's not sound. A mild unsoundness issue is not sound. If you can see it in the jog, to me, it isn't even serviceably sound. And since we get vet checks to determine whether the horse is serviceably sound for purpose intended...

                    Do you want to be held financially responsible for what amounts to an undiagnosed soundness issue that may or may not get worse during your lease? Vet fees, farriery, the works?
                    Not to hijack the thread, but I have a question aboutthe soundness issue. Has anyone had this issue where the horse passes the vet check, including x-rays, but can't pass the jog? I don't have much experience with this but it seems to be counter intuitive.

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                    • #30
                      Horse's "fancy" factor shouldn't really come into play if you're not planning on showing. And she definitely shouldn't be the hack winner if she can't pass a jog.... Find an older jumper that can teach you height confidence if that's all you're going for. And unless you're planning on buying that same take care of you type of horse at the end of the lease, leasing something that isn't absolutely perfect, i.e not a perfect change, needs more flat work,etc may help you prep a bit more. If this lease is purely to teach you and get your eye used to 3'6" I'd bypass fancy and look for serviceable. And sound.

                      Also, are you going to be responsible for the vet bills if her mild unsolvable mystery lameness turns into a real lameness? I'd definitely have that discussion and how you can get out of this lease if it goes south with her health. I would worry about a "mild" soundness issue that bumps her out of the ribbons but doesn't show up in a lameness exam. Somebody doesn't have their story straight to me. I can understand not finding anything that is causing it but that doesn't mean she's clean.

                      AND you're going to be paying $1200/month in board and training?!?! Is that lessons or training rides for the mare? If she needs to be in full training and then you'd be paying on top of that I would pass.

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                      • Original Poster

                        #31
                        Thank you all for the advice and comments! Let me answer a few questions from the thread:

                        1. The lessor agreed to a clause that says if her lameness ever makes her unridable, I can get out of the lease and receive a prorated refund. (Another question: is it customary to pay the lease fee all up front, or in monthly installments?)

                        2. The $1200 / month is $600 / month in board and $600 / month in training, which gets me lessons plus training rides for the mare when I can't ride.

                        3. I, too, am puzzled by the mystery lameness issue. I am taking them at their word that they've vetted her and the vets can find nothing and that the mystery lameness doesn't interfere with her work. I was able to see the (slight) lameness issue myself when I watched her go at a show.

                        4. It's not that I can't show, it's just that I don't plan to. I might eventually do some showing, but I want to get my riding back up to speed and be comfortable jumping around a 3'6" course at home first. I am really an amateur pleasure rider, not a serious competitor.

                        5. I feel like I would do best on a "total packer" so that I can focus on improving my riding. I think it's fair to characterize me as a timid rider now (about a year in after a 15-year break), although I'm working on that, and my seat and technique are definitely not where they need to be. I'm not sure if I "need" that kind of horse, but my ride on the lease candidate was definitely the most pleasant I've had since taking up riding again.

                        I'm trying her again tomorrow or Friday and then will make a decision.

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                        • #32
                          I wouldn't touch it. While buyers are all trying to get something for nothing, someone saw you coming.

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                          • #33
                            I have a horse at my barn that is "sound" but won't pass the jog. His former owner didn't rehab an injury, and so his ankle fused in such a way he can't fully flex it. His movement doesn't get any better if we block the area, so we feel he is sound and able to jump, but not planning to enter any hacks.

                            Just giving an example of a physically sound/able horse, who may move off.

                            (I do think the $15,000 is steep, but if you want to lease at your barn, do you have other options? Is this reasonible for your budget?)
                            Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

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                            • #34
                              $15k for a leased horse you aren't going to show is quite steep. However, $15k for a AA hunter that is ultra safe, a total packer, and walks around 3'6 is a different story. As a college student I cannot fathom that kind of money for a lease but if I was in the position to comfortably spend that amount then I would definitely consider it if I felt the horse was a good match.

                              Ultimately it doesn't matter what the lease costs because $15k for you might be $30k to someone else or $5k to another. Is she worth it to you?

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                              • #35
                                $1200/month is expensive for board!!! I hope it's a premium facility!!

                                I think for a great horse, this is a decent deal, IF you have unlimited access to the horse, and it's like the horse is yours, AND if the horse is very valuable and you're actually getting what you pay for.

                                For an unsound horse that you can't show, if you're just looking for a confidence builder, $15k is a LOT of money to spend and this horse probably doesn't fit the bill very well. My advice would be to shop around and see if you can find something sound for less money out of pocket.
                                Teaching Horseback Riding Lessons: A Practical Training Manual for Instructors

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                                • #36
                                  $1200 a month is normal for a BNT barn training/show board. If the OP is looking to move up to the 3'6, then 15k is a decent lease for a quiet, safe, sane show hunter. A decent, safe 3'6 horse that can show can easily get 45k a year for a lease.

                                  However, if all the OP needs is a 3ft horse, then it isn't a good price and I agree that she should look elsewhere.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    OP, just get clear on the suspected cause of the mystery lameness and the program they have for managing it.

                                    Also, I assume the owner will want you to insure the horse. Since the lameness is known, chances are that that leg has already been excluded from a major medical policy.

                                    They probably do have all the information you need about what kind of problem the lameness is and how to keep the horse going as it is now. But in your shoes, I'd want a clear and written bit of the contract that limited my liability for that lameness getting worse.
                                    The armchair saddler
                                    Politically Pro-Cat

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                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by thebird View Post
                                      Thank you all for the advice and comments! Let me answer a few questions from the thread:

                                      1. The lessor agreed to a clause that says if her lameness ever makes her unridable, I can get out of the lease and receive a prorated refund. (Another question: is it customary to pay the lease fee all up front, or in monthly installments?)
                                      This would be where the ambiguity is this contract lies - how will her lameness be assessed? who will have the final word?
                                      I can readily imagine a scenario where you no longer feel comfortable riding/jumping her, but the leaser insists that all is well & if you just do x,y,z maintenance, then she is still adequately "sound".
                                      You may wish to write the contract such that you will only continue current maintenance protocols (farrier & vet - I'd expect to view actual bills/documents) & that any additional treatments opens the lease to early completion or renegotiation at your discretion.

                                      Is the mare currently insured?
                                      I would have a PPE done at the start of the lease so you have a baseline (that is yours).


                                      2. The $1200 / month is $600 / month in board and $600 / month in training, which gets me lessons plus training rides for the mare when I can't ride.
                                      Calculate how many lessons you will actually manage monthly over the course of the year - when the barn/trainer is off at shows, who will you lesson with? who will do the "training" rides? (not sure why she'd need "training" rides if she's all that)



                                      5. I feel like I would do best on a "total packer" so that I can focus on improving my riding. I think it's fair to characterize me as a timid rider now (about a year in after a 15-year break), although I'm working on that, and my seat and technique are definitely not where they need to be. I'm not sure if I "need" that kind of horse, but my ride on the lease candidate was definitely the most pleasant I've had since taking up riding again.
                                      What's your current fitness level - are you strong enough now to jump 3 -3'6", or do you need to improve your fitness over the next several months before you're even ready for that level/height.
                                      How educated a rider were you before your long break - looking back over your 1st year back should tell you alot about how you'll advance over the next several months.

                                      What has been your riding program during the last year?
                                      If you've only been at a single barn, I'd recommend that you explore others during the next year - even if you do decide to go ahead with the lease.

                                      Only you can truly judge whether this seems a reasonable exchange for you.

                                      If the leaser is amenable, I'd try for a 3month trial lease, if all goes well (mare remains sound & you still have no desire to show), then extend the lease to 1 year.

                                      How likely the mare is to "hold up" rather depends on what she's been doing for the last year, also her age ...
                                      Also consider if mare is off for weeks - months (for an issue unrelated to her current "unsoundness"), are there other (suitable) horses you'll be able to lesson on/ride? (will you be able to afford to do so?)

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                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by babecakes View Post
                                        Huh ... lease an unsound horse to practice jumping 3 ft plus???? What kind of horsemanship is this? That would be my 'key' question.
                                        BRAVO!!! My thoughts exactly. It is poor horsemanship, that is what it is.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Just to give you something to compare to, I have a horse that is for sale (not advertising here just comparing horse quality!) that would be leased at slightly more per year than this horse. He is sound and quiet, has shown up to 1.40 and currently goes around the 1.10-1.30s and always places. He is a confidence builder because he always goes around quietly and will jump from any distance.
                                          I know we are comparing a hunter to a jumper here but you could find a better horse for the money or a similar horse for much less. I would offer them less and see if they take the offer. The worst they would say is no, and then you can keep looking for something better. Focus on what features are really important to you and look for that, rather than falling for a pretty horse that moves well.
                                          www.jodsonline.com

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