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John Madden in American Horses in Sport Issue (Very long and a rant)

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  • #21
    Originally posted by Midge View Post
    First, I know nothing about this particular case and I only know the people involved by sight.

    That said, what I heard was the amount of cocaine was so small, it was less than the amount that is routinely excused by people who handle money, because cocaine is present on money.

    I found that interesting, because I remember hearing the exact same thing about another cocaine case and the 'trainers' got their braider to say he peed on the hay and he was a cocaine user. That's how the horse ended up with a positive.

    Now, if this tiny amount of cocaine is present on our money and is enough to be turned up in tests, why doesn't it come up all the time? there should be horses right and left getting positives for cocaine. Yet, I can't even recall one a year. It's been around 20 years since the junior hunter and the peeing braider.

    So, whatever the REAL story is, I'm skeptical that it's a tiny amount that should be with the allowable limit.
    Yabbut.... how much cocaine does it take to produce those little "I got via handling money" amounts in a horse?

    It seems to me that the horse would have to handle a lot of money with his lips to get there.

    What am I not understanding in this common explanation?
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat

    Comment


    • #22
      As for the use of cocaine, as I've heard it told on this BB, the value of cocaine is in the downside, the withdrawal of it, meaning that the argument of "it was only a trace" is not at all compelling. A trace is consistent with an earlier administration.

      If it was highly random contamination, then there should be a lot more positives.

      Reading the NARG newsletter, "we wonder whether the FEI would have taken this same hard line position" ... where the heck have they been? Do they not remember Athens and Hong Kong? Take your pick of sad stories there.

      And I think furthermore that any horseman who thinks a violation involving an NSAID == cocaine is seriously in denial.
      If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by Molly Sorge View Post
        That was in June. You simply reported the hearing and results in a longer article on the Olympic show jumping team. You did not report on how the suspension was quietly lifted in November. (There was a thread about that on this forum.)

        Originally posted by Molly Sorge View Post
        We also were one of the very first, and only, to report on the death of Humble...
        http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/...ony-dies-devon

        That information was also included in the magazine's story about Devon.
        Who else would be reporting on the death of Humble? In Touch? Popular Mechanics? Garden & Gun? This is your purview. Reporting the death of a pony at Devon is a demonstration of competence, not excellence.

        Originally posted by Molly Sorge View Post
        Oh, Molly. No, no, no, no. Do you really expect me to believe that 'Edited Press Release' is the name of a staff writer at the Chronicle? Do you really think that a press release of any kind, edited or not, is 'reporting' or 'journalism'? It's not.

        That's better. But it's a report on a public talk. I don't see where the Chronicle writer has asked any questions of the principals based on their remarks in the forum. In real news, a reporter would pull the principals aside for clarifications or further questions. It's not always required but this is often part of how stories are investigated. Otherwise, we're just taking everyone uncritically at their word.

        Originally posted by Molly Sorge View Post
        We have upset many people, many times, including the USEF quite a bit.

        I would add that we've published multiple times on the topic of drugging...

        http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/...ce-old-problem

        http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/...%99s-dangerous
        And the end result of that 'upset' is what? Hopefully, a media organization that demands (1) more respect from the sport that it covers and (2) more transparency from the governing organizations in that sport. We -- the horse community, the members of these organizations -- need a strong, independent press presence to help keep our sport and its organizations honest.

        Comment


        • #24
          I agree. It would have been nice (and really, expected) to have the Chronicle follow up on the lifting of the suspension of Bruce Burr and the reasoning behind it.

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by SunNSand View Post
            Geez, instead of banning DMSO (that's news to me) how about cleaning up the backside?
            It irks me that tracks don't require drug testing of backside employees. 90% of the people back there would be gone gone gone. Not to mention track officials turn a blind eye to drinking and other unsavory activities in the barns. Some tracks are worse than others but its pretty bad when people are drinking in full view of anyone walking by.

            Horse snorting coke. What the world is coming to :-(

            Comment


            • #26
              First off - that NARG thing is risible. Seriously, upper level riders, you want some CHEESE with that whine? You got beaten at the Olympic Games. Life's not fair. Deal with it and move on, like the professionals you CLAIM to be.

              Second: if Mr. Madden is alleging that the wrong person got set down for the cocaine offense (which I do not think he is, but let's pretend), let me remind him and all other professionals reading this that it takes a really special kind of tacky to throw your own employees under the bus and then whine about how hard-done-by you are by those pesky USEF rules.

              Sympathy??? Hell, I don't even have any patience left to spare on ANY of these people.
              "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by JER View Post
                And the end result of that 'upset' is what? Hopefully, a media organization that demands (1) more respect from the sport that it covers and (2) more transparency from the governing organizations in that sport. We -- the horse community, the members of these organizations -- need a strong, independent press presence to help keep our sport and its organizations honest.
                YES! Thank you. Exactly. Bravo!
                ******
                "A good horse and a good rider are only so in mutual trust."
                -H.M.E.

                Comment


                • #28
                  Really! Molly, this is such a topic of concern to a great many horse people ,as is evidenced by the many discussions about these drug violations on this BB and now, a wider public since the publication of the New York Times article.
                  I think COTH should keep up with the news and be a source that can be looked to for information about these matters.

                  Is it a reluctance on the part of COTH to "dwell" on the negative? The reluctance to ruffle the feathers of important people, some that do contribute to COTH with articles, advertising and such? I can understand that tendency, however, with the seriousness of the drugging issue, I think it should be addressed.

                  USEF needs to be upfront with it's members. ALL of it's members, not just the elite, and I think COTH could (and should) help it's readership by reporting without being selective.

                  I don't think anyone wants COTH to become the National Enquirer of equine publications, but this is a serious matter. Not reporting information, that should be available to everyone concerned with the problem of drugging, smacks of the good old boy mentality and is a disappointment.
                  Last edited by skydy; Jan. 29, 2013, 09:28 PM.

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                  • #29
                    I believe DMSO will carry anything soluble directly into the bloodstream. But the other substance still needs to be around the horse and, depending on how the horse was handled, that substance could get in even without the DMSO. I don't really see how the DMSO is the crux of the problem.
                    ~Veronica
                    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by War Admiral View Post

                      Second: if Mr. Madden is alleging that the wrong person got set down for the cocaine offense (which I do not think he is, but let's pretend)
                      Honestly, that was how I read the quote..

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by vxf111 View Post
                        I believe DMSO will carry anything soluble directly into the bloodstream. But the other substance still needs to be around the horse and, depending on how the horse was handled, that substance could get in even without the DMSO. I don't really see how the DMSO is the crux of the problem.
                        Honestly..I agree.
                        IMHO, people that find themselves in the Mario Delaurier/Bruce Burr/ Jane Clark/Urico situation need to be more concerned about keeping cocaine users out of their programs,rather than complaining about the testing that shows minute amounts of cocaine found in their horses.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Is John Madden implying it was sabotage? If so, why doesn't he come out and say it? Honestly, even if you weren't GIVING COCAINE to your horse... lie down with dogs and get up with fleas. People who are handling cocaine regularly enough to have it on their hands and get it accidentally into your horse isn't "blaming the wrong person." It's your choice who you employ. The only way I can see an argument for blaming the wrong person is if someone outside the program gave the horse the drug. Could that really be what happened? I thought barn protocol was pretty locked down at these sort of events.
                          ~Veronica
                          "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                          http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by vxf111 View Post
                            The only way I can see an argument for blaming the wrong person is if someone outside the program gave the horse the drug. Could that really be what happened? I thought barn protocol was pretty locked down at these sort of events.
                            I have no specific knowledge about this particular case.

                            In my experience with horses in the FEI setting, the protocol is designed to prevent unauthorized people from getting into the stable area. If you have the proper credentials to get past the stable gate, once you're inside, nobody tracks where you go, or if you're in your own aisle or a different aisle. Somebody might notice you, but not the official security guard who watches the gate. If you go late at night for night check when nobody is around....

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by MHM View Post
                              I have no specific knowledge about this particular case.

                              In my experience with horses in the FEI setting, the protocol is designed to prevent unauthorized people from getting into the stable area. If you have the proper credentials to get past the stable gate, once you're inside, nobody tracks where you go, or if you're in your own aisle or a different aisle. Somebody might notice you, but not the official security guard who watches the gate. If you go late at night for night check when nobody is around....
                              Right, I mean-- that's how it was for the observation event at Devon. So the only person who could access your horse was your staff or someone else's staff in that part of the facility. So SOMEBODY authorized to be caring for the horses would have to have the banned substance. Which means its you, your grooms, someone else's grooms, or another rider. It just seems.... sort of unlikely that it would be sabotage at such a high profile event... and if that's what he's hinting around, why doesn't he say it?!
                              ~Veronica
                              "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                              http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by SunNSand View Post
                                Whenever I hear about a positive test for cocaine (often in racing) I can't help but think of tampering. I mean who is dumb enough to dose their horse with that stuff when they KNOW the horse will likely be tested? The concequences just are not worth it. I'd love to hear the whole story but honestly doubt it will ever come out.
                                That doesn't pass the smell test any more than this did IMHO http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...-from-Olympics

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Well said JER and Skydy!

                                  Hope COTH sees that we want some in depth investigative articles on these types of issues! I would subscribe if they had those types of articles.

                                  P.
                                  A Wandering Albertan - NEW Africa travel blog!

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    There are a lot of articles about very small amounts of cocaine being found in Racehorses.They test for a by product of cocaine and do not know if other substances the horses ingest or come in contact with produce this same by product.

                                    http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/20...em-lab-testin/

                                    http://www.fsijournal.org/article/S0...704-9/abstract

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by skydy View Post
                                      That doesn't pass the smell test any more than this did IMHO http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...-from-Olympics
                                      1. What is was trying to say is that someone that gives their horse cocaine when they know there is a good chance of being tested isn't very bright and is risking a lot. It would make more sense that the horse has been tampered with but then again not everyone in the horse world is bright/sane.
                                      2. Tampering does happen. I have only seen it first hand in racing. Does it happen in other disciplines? I don't know.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by fordtraktor View Post
                                        They shouldn't have been feeding the horse money. I know hay is expensive in Florida, but cutting out the middleman and just feeding your horse money directly is really too much.
                                        I know this is a serious discussion of the politics of doping, but I cannot let this comment slide without.
                                        A helmet saved my life.

                                        2017 goal: learn to ride like TheHorseProblem, er, a barn rat!

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          If the regulatory authority holds its line, it is possible to discipline high-profile drug offenders http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...rugs-test.html. A question of organisational culture, I suspect.
                                          "Good young horses are bred, but good advanced horses are trained" Sam Griffiths

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