• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Are you kidden ME!!! RE - Examine show jumpings prize money.

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Are you kidden ME!!! RE - Examine show jumpings prize money.

    This weeks Chronicles article by Chris Kapler. This Thread could get long and dirty with just my opinion alone on the article.

    " It's the duty of the federation to create a sport that encourages people to get better. It should be that the higher they jump, the more money they may win" BS!

    I ride every day to improve my skills so I should be ready for the higher level. the Federation then can go buy my $100,000.00 horse to go and jump in a $25,000 Grand Prix. No, I'll just take a second mortgage out on the house to try and pay for my Grand Prix horse.

    I wouldn't compete in Dressage, there is no Prize Money
    when I can enter in Jumper classes at Horse Shows that offer $15,000 prize money. (which the winner usually only gets $4,000). It cost Mucho Money to keep these horses healthy. Every win helps and supports my Horse Show traveling account so I can plan my next show.

    Does Chris not get it, most Amateurs have full time jobs or in school. This is not going to be their career. I have many students who goals is to make it to the High Child/Adult so they can try for the money classes. This is probable as far as they will go. Due to time and money and cost of new horse. To win in a big money class at 1.15 against 64 horses is all I need. 1.15 to 1.20 is as high as I want to go.
    And you get in the higher levels you have pay Nomination Fees.


    If they change this rule I just as well go into Reining or Barrel racing. These riding discipline offer large Prize money to Amateurs.
    Last edited by Moderator 1; Jan. 24, 2013, 12:12 PM. Reason: language in title
    "An ordinary trainer cannot hear a Horse speak, a Good trainer can, a Great trainer can hear them whisper and a Top Trainer can HEAR them Think." John O'Leary

  • #2
    There is already a nice big discussion about this going on

    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/fo...-Hunter-Jumper

    Comment


    • #3
      **** out of ***** on the rant-o-meter

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by caballero View Post
        **** out of ***** on the rant-o-meter
        Good grief, what does it take to get five stars? Coherence?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Catherine Cullen View Post
          Good grief, what does it take to get five stars? Coherence?
          It was just that little bit short in the krazeeness.

          Comment


          • #6
            Needs more CAPSLOCK AND !!!!!!!!

            Comment


            • #7
              You seem to have missed the argument that lowering prize money would hopefully lead to more affordable shows in general. Whether that is true or not is debatable, but I don't have a horse in this race.

              But seriously. Damn.

              Comment


              • #8
                So are you a pro or amateur? First you say that they need to offer the money to the amateurs then you say you have students showing, and then it is back to switching to something else since it offers money to amateurs

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by big_red_ottb View Post
                  You seem to have missed the argument that lowering prize money would hopefully lead to more affordable shows in general. Whether that is true or not is debatable, but I don't have a horse in this race.

                  But seriously. Damn.
                  Unfortunately, lowing prize money does not change the cost of the show grounds, jumps, officials etc. Most entry fees are determined by those fixed costs and altered slightly based on prize money. There are already caps in place for many entry fee based on the prize money in the 25+ gp.

                  You might see a small break in entry fees by lowering prize money in some classics, but I don't believe it would be that significant, unless you did away with the classic concept in the jumpers and had no money in any jumper classes, except X.

                  The majority of the shows put there prize money in the classes that have exhibitors. The more that want the show, the more money offered. Having to put money in classes where few participate only drives up the cost for the others.

                  Look at the Hunters, shows are required to offer the money prize money of any division in the high performance hunters. When was the last time that was the largest division at a show (even when only looking at the A rated divisions). Management can add prize money to the adults, but it doesn't count against the money they are required to offer in the A rated sections. I have never understood this. Managers need the flexibility to offer prize money based on the exhibitors that attend their shows. I actually think if there were a few less restrictions on that, you would see prices drop more as they would not need to inflate the lower level fees to cover the big classes with few entries.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Feeltheride View Post
                    I wouldn't compete in Dressage, there is no Prize Money
                    when I can enter in Jumper classes at Horse Shows that offer $15,000 prize money.
                    You should probably compare the relative expense of a dressage show to a h/j show before you get too excited.

                    Lauren Sprieser wrote a blog article about it costing her (GASP) $250 per class to enter a horse in a CDI at the Grand Prix level and the horseshow lasting "three days." Stabling was reported to be "in the $250 range."
                    So, I mean, "just for starters, you're in the $700 range."

                    Please note that the $700 figure INCLUDED your horse's FEI passport ($175 every four years) and your FEI registrations ($15 each for horse and rider every year). Additionally, you can't enter JUST the one Grand Prix class, you also have to enter the Grand Prix Special or the GP Kur, so her math includes TWO trips around the international GP ring.

                    Yeah, ok.
                    In dressage that is what you spend when you take your Grand Prix horse to a CDI and try to rack up international points and whoops you need to re-up all your memberships too.

                    In h/j that is what you spend to put baby green miles on a 4yo or attempt to make it around the 2'6" mortifieds, and this is assuming you already re-upped all your memberships at an earlier show.

                    Please name me ONE grand prix class for a show jumper that you can participate in including entry, stabling, and all required horse and rider memberships for $700.

                    I keep trying to introduce the mathematical concept that "less prize money = less expense for everyone all around" but people don't seem to be wearing their math hats these days. I guess dressage riders have to count 15 ones, h/j people maybe jump in and then count up to 7.
                    The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                    Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                    Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                    The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
                      I keep trying to introduce the mathematical concept that "less prize money = less expense for everyone all around" but people don't seem to be wearing their math hats these days. I guess dressage riders have to count 15 ones, h/j people maybe jump in and then count up to 7.
                      Everyone understands that in theory. But there's no proof that the show managers go along with that idea. If they did, I'd be on board, but in the meantime, I want what little money I can get.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Tha Ridge View Post
                        Everyone understands that in theory. But there's no proof that the show managers go along with that idea. If they did, I'd be on board, but in the meantime, I want what little money I can get.
                        Well, the way to turn the ship in the right direction isn't to say, 'Let's just keep doing what we're doing and keep the prize money really high!", but rather to say, "Let's lower the prize money, and maybe also some of the other costs inflicted on A-shows such as jumbo trons and viewing galleries and a five day schedule and whatever else nonsense they are now required to have for an A-rating just so that no little guy could ever compete with Struzzeri and the like, and if we really want to get started eliminate the mileage rule, and then show managers will have demonstrably lower costs plus more competition and they can see how keeping the entries astronomical works out for them."

                        Aka a math-based solution.
                        The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                        Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                        Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                        The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
                          Please name me ONE grand prix class for a show jumper that you can participate in including entry, stabling, and all required horse and rider memberships for $700.

                          I keep trying to introduce the mathematical concept that "less prize money = less expense for everyone all around" but people don't seem to be wearing their math hats these days. I guess dressage riders have to count 15 ones, h/j people maybe jump in and then count up to 7.
                          Point one - I'll agree there. To ride in the GP at any major show, you have to show in at least one class prior. So if you ONLY showed in those two classes at a typical big A/AA show you're looking at this:
                          Fees: FEI Passport $300 (every 4 years)
                          FEI Reg $15 horse, $15 rider
                          Horseshow: Typical stall/GP Nom fee/feed = $710
                          Classes (entry fees): Welcome Class: $300
                          Grand Prix: $425
                          Total fees (excluding extras like hauling, hotels, etc and I also didn't include USEF membership, which presumably a dressage rider also has to pay)=

                          $1765 for 2 classes at a show.

                          My comment about the prize money, though, comes directly from a couple of show managers that I know well. They've said to me on many occasions that the prize money typically comes directly from the sponsors. And the sponsors generally aren't interested in donating money without a class and championship to tie it to.

                          Now this could just be in the microcosm of the Seattle area H/J circuit. But my translation of that is that there wouldn't be sponsors without the direct contribution to classes/divisions and so if you lower the prize money you're not kicking dollars back into the show, but instead not partaking from the sponsor donations.

                          I know there are several people who run shows on COTH, so hopefully someone will chime in and correct me if I'm wrong.

                          But I will also take a possibly not-very-popular stance and say that I absolutely agree with Chris Kapler that the prize money should get bigger the bigger the classes get. If we want to drive a horse world here that creates the best of the best we'll keep incentivizing people to reach for the top classes, not settle at 1.10m because that's where the big prize money is. Why is it the federation's job to support the economics of the mediocre levels of the sport? And please note, I'm not calling 1.10m riders mediocre, just that someone who gets to that point and decides to stay there is settling in the lower levels. What's the point of driving a horseshow ecosystem to support that?

                          But meupatdoes, point taken. The only way to ensure that the problem continues is to keep doing more of the same.
                          __________________________________
                          Flying F Sport Horses
                          Horses in the NW

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by PNWjumper View Post
                            And please note, I'm not calling 1.10m riders mediocre, just that someone who gets to that point and decides to stay there is settling in the lower levels. What's the point of driving a horseshow ecosystem to support that?
                            You know, a lot of people get there and stay there because it's what they can afford. Until there's a charity that hands out 1.40m+ horses, I don't foresee that changing. Not everyone is settling.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Tha Ridge View Post
                              You know, a lot of people get there and stay there because it's what they can afford. Until there's a charity that hands out 1.40m+ horses, I don't foresee that changing. Not everyone is settling.
                              And on top of the obvious 1.4m horse price issue, trainers who are truly qualified to help someone move up beyond 1.1m are generally expensive. Many talented riders are priced out of ever getting the opportunity to safely move up the levels.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Tha Ridge View Post
                                You know, a lot of people get there and stay there because it's what they can afford. Until there's a charity that hands out 1.40m+ horses, I don't foresee that changing. Not everyone is settling.
                                I'm not sure what charity you're looking for. My last 3 1.40m horses have cost less than $4,000 each (with two of them being below $2,000). I put a lot of "sweat equity" into them, but my point is that you don't *have* to spend big bucks to get an upper level athlete. You just need to have an eye or a trainer with an eye to find a good prospect.
                                __________________________________
                                Flying F Sport Horses
                                Horses in the NW

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by PNWjumper View Post
                                  I'm not sure what charity you're looking for. My last 3 1.40m horses have cost less than $4,000 each (with two of them being below $2,000). I put a lot of "sweat equity" into them, but my point is that you don't *have* to spend big bucks to get an upper level athlete. You just need to have an eye or a trainer with an eye to find a good prospect.
                                  You got lucky and you obviously have a lot of time. For amateurs without luck and time (riding 3x per week is a lot for me), the only option is buy a horse that can put up with jokes. Those aren't cheap.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by PNWjumper View Post
                                    I'm not sure what charity you're looking for. My last 3 1.40m horses have cost less than $4,000 each (with two of them being below $2,000). I put a lot of "sweat equity" into them, but my point is that you don't *have* to spend big bucks to get an upper level athlete. You just need to have an eye or a trainer with an eye to find a good prospect.
                                    I respect you and what you do but your response really reflects the whole pro rider mentality. As much as they don't have money, many amateurs don't have sufficient time to put in to making good, top quality horses.

                                    How much would you charge a client who bought a $4,000 horse with GP potential over the life it would take the horse to get there if say they could only ride 3 days a week? Add that up.

                                    My last upper level horse cost me $8,500 and as an amateur I spent $250,000 over his life to get him there (lessons, trailering, board, vets, farriers, equipment, show expenses outside of entries and stall, etc.).

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by RAyers View Post
                                      I respect you and what you do but your response really reflects the whole pro rider mentality. As much as they don't have money, many amateurs don't have sufficient time to put in to making good, top quality horses.

                                      How much would you charge a client who bought a $4,000 horse with GP potential over the life it would take the horse to get there if say they could only ride 3 days a week? Add that up.

                                      My last upper level horse cost me $8,500 and as an amateur I spent $250,000 over his life to get him there (lessons, trailering, board, vets, farriers, equipment, show expenses outside of entries and stall, etc.).
                                      I completely agree with you - show jumping is an expensive sport no matter what the entry point . and horses that cost less to buy don't cost less to keep. but I have to point out that horse boarding and training is a profession with terrible margins and while what you paid your professional to board and train him is enormous, its likely that your pro didn't make a lot of money from it - kind of off topic but the idea that horses cost a lot because horse professionals are ripping amateurs off seems to somehow enter into the debate as a reason that amateurs ought to have their prize money protected. ( I'm not saying that there aren't bad horse pros, just like there are bad doctors and bad lawyers and etc - just that the good ones still have to charge a lot just to break even)

                                      And another thought- if we adjusted prize money down in amateur classes and took away the incentive for "shamateurs" to chase money in these classes, couldn't we consider getting rid of the whole "amateur owner" rule in the jumper divisions - make them all just "amateur" classes - starting at 1.00, then 1.10, 1.20, 1.30, 1.40 all with the same set of rules and all cross-enter able, with increasing prize money as you move up- none at 1.00, $1000 at 1.10, $2000 at 1.20, $2500 at 1.30 and $5000 at 1.40 . As the rules stand now, the adult jumper to low amateur owner jump is insurmountable for someone who can't afford to buy or own a horse. Why should adult jumper riders get to lease or borrow horses and show for lots of prize money, but low amateur owner riders have to buy their own horses and often compete for less. and why can low amateur riders cross enter into high classes but adult riders can't cross enter into low amateur classes. It seems like this change would do much more to ease the affordability of moving up the levels for many more people than promoting prize money in amateur classes as a way to offset the expenses of owning a horse.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by RAyers View Post
                                        I respect you and what you do but your response really reflects the whole pro rider mentality. As much as they don't have money, many amateurs don't have sufficient time to put in to making good, top quality horses.

                                        How much would you charge a client who bought a $4,000 horse with GP potential over the life it would take the horse to get there if say they could only ride 3 days a week? Add that up.

                                        My last upper level horse cost me $8,500 and as an amateur I spent $250,000 over his life to get him there (lessons, trailering, board, vets, farriers, equipment, show expenses outside of entries and stall, etc.).
                                        Well, for starters, I'm not a pro. I am an amateur. And to Tha Ridge's point, I have no more time on my hands than anyone else. I'm the VP of a Biotech start-up and put in 60+ hours a week in addition to having 2 small children. I'm intimately familiar with the doing-conference-calls-on-horseback, riding in the pitch black, and working full days while at horseshows routines. It's a matter of how much you want to sacrifice, and as my husband says, I may have a "boundary issue" with the horses.

                                        It is a fair point that many (if not most?) amateurs don't have time AND money. But that wasn't why I posted. I posted as a response to Tha Ridge who implied that the only thing that kept her out of the 1.40m jumpers was the cost of the horse. If you're showing at 1.10m, you're already paying for the cost of the show, the cost of the training rides, and the cost of the lessons. It will cost you that same $250K (or whatever you want to call that number) to pay for training rides, horseshows, clinics, lessons, vet, and farrier on a horse you keep at the same level as a prospect you're bringing up through the levels.

                                        If you're capable of riding a 1.40m jumper course you *should* be good enough to bring along your own horse (and if the only thing that's keep you out of the 1.40m is the cost of the horse that's the implication)...with or without help is a moot point because you pay for that help either way. The alternative is finding a horse who can take a joke. Well, those are out there and they're not *that* hard to find in the younger age ranges if you have a good eye or good help (I'm in the latter camp and am very lucky to have a great trainer and a great vet I rely heavily on to give the once over to my choices). The bigger problem, in my opinion, is that very few trainers these days (on the h/j circuit) know how to spot a good prospect and the how to develop it into an upper level jumper. But that's a whole other topic.

                                        So if you can't get there because you don't want to take the time and energy to get there, or can't find a trainer who's willing to help you in that goal, then call it what it is. Don't hide behind the "I can't afffffoooorrrrdddd the perfect hoooorrrssee!!!" excuse. I firmly believe that just about anyone who wants to can get to the upper levels (given the right slightly obsessive mindset) and the only thing that prevents most amateurs from wanting to do it is that pesky sense of mortality and the preponderance of less-than-stellar trainers who are happy to keep their adults jumping over the little jumps.

                                        So if you get to the 1.10m and decide to sit there that's your choice driven by your circumstances. There's certainly nothing wrong with it if it makes you happy. If you're only willing to make time 3 days a week to ride then that's your choice. I have no problem with all of that, but why should a show strive to get more money increasingly to the people who are unwilling or unable to make the horses and the sport a top priority?
                                        __________________________________
                                        Flying F Sport Horses
                                        Horses in the NW

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X