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Is the Humble Initiative related to the Armstrong Effect?

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  • #21
    For the record, I have even gone so far as to demand and have given permission to the USEF to test all B samples in their possession of all animals under AHF LLC's custody and control that were drug tested at USEF sanctioned competitions. Humble was tested for over 1100 substances and I signed an affidavit under the pains of perjury of my own free will stating no banned substances were ever used on him or my animals at USEF sanctioned competitions. My daughter can ride. I buy her green animals and we train them together. We work very hard. It is an insult to her and myself that you accuse us of lying. Emma just scored an 88 on her junior hunter that she has done the 3'6" with 5 times. I wont post the video because I will be accused of advertising on COTH. You know where to find it and he is NOT for sale.
    Elizabeth Mandarino
    www.amberhillponies.com
    cell 908.397.0977

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    • #22
      EM:
      No one brings your daughter into this other than yourself. That's a little strange, don't you think?

      Sorry, but nothing changes the fact that your pony dropped dead at the end of your needle.
      http://www.youtube.com/user/supershorty628
      Proudly blogging for The Chronicle of the Horse!

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      • #23
        i think it is UNCANNY how much you sound like Armstrong, Elizabeth. right down to the threats, lawyers and denials.

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        • #24
          Originally posted by amberhill View Post
          For the record, I have even gone so far as to demand and have given permission to the USEF to test all B samples in their possession of all animals under AHF LLC's custody and control that were drug tested at USEF sanctioned competitions. Humble was tested for over 1100 substances and I signed an affidavit under the pains of perjury of my own free will stating no banned substances were ever used on him or my animals at USEF sanctioned competitions. My daughter can ride. I buy her green animals and we train them together. We work very hard. It is an insult to her and myself that you accuse us of lying. Emma just scored an 88 on her junior hunter that she has done the 3'6" with 5 times. I wont post the video because I will be accused of advertising on COTH. You know where to find it and he is NOT for sale.
          Just FYI, people will forget about this and stop talking about you a LOT sooner if you SHUT UP and stay out of it. You seem to have a sick fascination for jumping into the threads and making the talk even louder when it comes down to it. You are going to have to tolerate a little while of folks rehashing this crap until a bigger scandal comes along - that's how sad our Kartrashian society has become. But if you stop egging it on, the conversations will end a lot faster. For what it's worth, my daughter can ride the pants off things too, we just don't have the $$$ to buy something and train it up. SO we are nobodies. You should be grateful you have a talented kid and the bankroll to keep putting her on rides and taking her to shows, and let the talk die down on its own which it WILL when you stop threatening to sue anyone who says the name "Humble" or "Amber Hill." If I were in your shoes I'd take my kid and my horses and quietly go do my thing and keep my head down and mouth shut. You don't seem to know how to do that.

          Hope this is readable, morphine makes me have trouble with words and inhibitions.
          If you love me let me go....

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          • #25
            So we have Lance Armstrong, whose only misgiving about 15 years of doping, lying and bullying is that he got caught.

            And then we have Manti Te'o, a college football player of adult age and devout Mormon faith who had an imaginary girlfriend who got in a serious car accident and then died of leukemia, all because he and/or his supporters were in hot pursuit of the Heisman trophy. He has yet to have his Oprah moment; he's currently in the no man's land between confession to or weaseling out of the hoax. Again, it's because he got caught by Deadspin's investigation.

            This is sport in America in 2013. Elizabeth Mandarino, you're in good company. Have you thought about contacting Oprah?

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            • #26
              Originally posted by JER View Post
              So we have Lance Armstrong, whose only misgiving about 15 years of doping, lying and bullying is that he got caught.

              And then we have Manti Te'o, a college football player of adult age and devout Mormon faith who had an imaginary girlfriend who got in a serious car accident and then died of leukemia, all because he and/or his supporters were in hot pursuit of the Heisman trophy. He has yet to have his Oprah moment; he's currently in the no man's land between confession to or weaseling out of the hoax. Again, it's because he got caught by Deadspin's investigation.

              This is sport in America in 2013. Elizabeth Mandarino, you're in good company. Have you thought about contacting Oprah?

              Perfect! people are posting photos of themselves Te'o ing with their imaginary lovers. do you think he will be able to sue every one who has mocked him?

              ( i am even still trying to believe that something forgivable was going on in the Te'o issue and am waiting until the verdict is in)

              i have an evil thought forming in my head.

              Comment


              • #27
                I'm not so willing to believe Te'o was hoaxed. I am convinced he knew there was no girl, that he was in on making the whole thing up in hopes the sympathy vote would win him a Heisman trophy. I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it. Like JER said, he's in between hoax and confession. He will ultimately be tripped up by the fact that he referenced his "dead girlfriend" publicly AFTER having gone to the school admin to admit there was no girl.

                PLEASE don't encourage EM to contact Oprah - the exact opposite of what she needs. We know what she did and why. The last thing she needs is a public television appearance to further her BS story. It will only draw more non-horsey people's attention to the sport before WE have a chance to get on top of the liars and cheaters ourselves. Before you know it the IOC will be conisdering dropping horse sports from the games because of the doping scandals.
                If you love me let me go....

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by alittlegray View Post
                  PLEASE don't encourage EM to contact Oprah - the exact opposite of what she needs. We know what she did and why. The last thing she needs is a public television appearance to further her BS story. It will only draw more non-horsey people's attention to the sport before WE have a chance to get on top of the liars and cheaters ourselves. Before you know it the IOC will be conisdering dropping horse sports from the games because of the doping scandals.
                  I hope you are feeling better, alittlegray.

                  Personally I hope Ms. Mandarino DOES go on Oprah. She will think it will do her some good, but it won't. Quite the opposite. Which is also why I hope she keeps posting and posting on COTH.

                  And quite frankly, if the IOC banned equestrian sports because of doping that might get the USEF's attention.
                  https://www.facebook.com/SugarMapleFarm
                  Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/peonyvodka/
                  www.PeonyVodka.com

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                  • #29
                    This is an excellent thread. Thank you, findeight, for starting it. Since, amberhill has jumped in, which she is free to do, I’d hate for this needed discussion to jump the rails and become about personalities and the defensiveness, because the underlying question is not about Lance and Elizabeth, but about us—just what types of behaviors are we willing to tolerate in those who are leaders in our community. Just who does the cycling community and the community of cancer suffers and survivors what to hold up as inspiration and role models? Just who am I willing to spend more discretionary dollars with on horse(s) for myself and/or my child than many families of employed parents will make in the next 12 months?

                    englishivy is partly right, we are a society that is more about the destination than the journey, but we are also a society that has shifted to a place of hubris that makes expected that we will put the desires of our own egos before the good of, well….. there are just too many examples; sadly.

                    It seems to me that our sport is a place where those who put the care and competent training of the animals and the training of a new generation of horsemen and women to be true horsemen and women, not the, quoting my first trainer from back in the day, “Barbie Doll passengers,” that we see so often today, need to take back the sport.

                    I’m not suggesting that folks “Occupy Devon,” but, rather a more subtle decree in willingness to simply silently go along; much of which we often see/hear on this board.

                    Just some thoughts from an ol’Hound

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #30
                      Originally posted by amberhill View Post
                      Please immediately remove this thread as it creates a platform for continued defamation of my name and business. Your indecency can not continue to hide behind the Common Decency Aact...

                      The questions have been ASKED and ANSWERED to the proper authorities and AHF LLC has issued the following press release as of January 19, 2013...

                      No, thread stays unless the Mods want it down. So does the other one...and I did not pose any questions regarding any specific incident on either of the threads.

                      Both threads are NOT about any individual and I asked for constructive thoughts in improving the show environment so that people are not afraid of speaking up with legitimate concerns or asking for clearer reporting guidlines and stiffer penalities for repeat offenders-that has fallen under what has been dubbed the Humble Initiative but it really has little or nothing to do with that specific incident nor was it directed at EM or AH Farms.

                      I actually am worried about a far larger number of horses and indivduals. If that is indecent and not covered by the "Common Decency Aact" So be it.

                      Go sit in the chair on Oprah and answer no. I still have the same concerns about the SPORT as a whole, not one person.

                      Well...except I now feel bullied/threatened. But not enough to take this or my earlier thread down despite being "ordered under threat of...."? What exactly?
                      When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                      The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

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                      • #31
                        It is my understanding that there are naturally present substances that tests are not sensitive enough to detect in large doses - like magnesium. While I am not accusing anyone of any illegal or unethical conduct, why are you against a temporary suspension from horse showing until USEF can perform a thorough investigation? Doesn't ensuring the health and safety of horses (and the children who ride them) trump a trainer's right to show horses during a reasonable investigative period?

                        Originally posted by amberhill View Post
                        For the record, I have even gone so far as to demand and have given permission to the USEF to test all B samples in their possession of all animals under AHF LLC's custody and control that were drug tested at USEF sanctioned competitions. Humble was tested for over 1100 substances and I signed an affidavit under the pains of perjury of my own free will stating no banned substances were ever used on him or my animals at USEF sanctioned competitions. My daughter can ride. I buy her green animals and we train them together. We work very hard. It is an insult to her and myself that you accuse us of lying. Emma just scored an 88 on her junior hunter that she has done the 3'6" with 5 times. I wont post the video because I will be accused of advertising on COTH. You know where to find it and he is NOT for sale.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by amberhill View Post
                          For the record, I have even gone so far as to demand and have given permission to the USEF to test all B samples in their possession of all animals under AHF LLC's custody and control that were drug tested at USEF sanctioned competitions. Humble was tested for over 1100 substances and I signed an affidavit under the pains of perjury of my own free will stating no banned substances were ever used on him or my animals at USEF sanctioned competitions. My daughter can ride. I buy her green animals and we train them together. We work very hard. It is an insult to her and myself that you accuse us of lying. Emma just scored an 88 on her junior hunter that she has done the 3'6" with 5 times. I wont post the video because I will be accused of advertising on COTH. You know where to find it and he is NOT for sale.
                          What was tested for all those substances? I read the USEF hearing you posted and from that I understand, no blood was collected so what did they test? Is it as accurate as a blood test? What B samples are you referring to? Thanks!

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Interesting, Findeight.

                            Interesting because yesterday I was pondering the exact same thing. And wondered if EM's need to "share" stuff she "should have shared a while ago" didn't have to do with the exact same thing.

                            Haven't had time to read the replies yet and am headed out the door, but really looking forward to reading this thread tonight.
                            "Aye God, Woodrow..."

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                            • #34
                              Please keep this thread on the broad topic/ideas introduced in the OP rather then focusing on specific individuals.

                              Mod 3

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                I read an article that gives an interesting perspective on the behavior of cheating or as Lance puts it "trying to maintain an even playfield." According to this author, fairness is a very modern concept. In Greek tragedies, cheating and lying is not considered anti heroic and not a case of disgrace. Odyseus was the consumate cheater and he lied and tricked his way to Troy. Achilles wore a special armor that gave him an advantage, an ancient form of "doping."

                                Maybe some of the pros in our field are reading the Greeks tragedies and getting inspired.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  I showed a sweetheart Morgan mare back in the very early 80s and lost the ride because I refused to ride her after the show vet injected her to cover a lameness. Had she been drug tested she, I, her owner, his other horses, the trainer and his other students and clients and horses could have been suspended from showing. On top of that the trainer and I were very concerned because the cause of the lameness had not yet been diagnosed.
                                  Since that time I've not wanted to show but the lesson barns around me that have good instructors are show barns. They think teaching me and/or my horse is a waste of their time.

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                                  • #37
                                    I have been reading about what has happened and always take what I read with a grain of salt. I have watched some of the interviews and I think the comment from englishivy says what I want to say - "For many it's about the destination and not about the journey".

                                    It has taken me years to find that quiet, nice moving horse and he's not even ready for the ring yet. I say to my trainer; I am in no hurry. That's why I like my trainer....

                                    I don't know if I am going to have a wining horse - but I will keep working with him knowing I will do what is best for his health and not best for my destination.

                                    I have other horses that I have had the goal of competing at the A level and it just didn't work out. But I didn't force them with drugs to do the job I wanted them to do. Things change, life changes....

                                    I also think that destination for some they feel will bring them fortune and fame - and that's when they do whatever they need to - even things that are wrong, risky or hurtful. But there are still some of us that want the destination to be a positive journey. I think this thread and much of what has been said is a good reminder what this is about for us.
                                    Live in the sunshine.
                                    Swim in the sea.
                                    Drink the wild air.

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                                    • #38
                                      Posted by houndsRus:

                                      “Occupy Devon”

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by doublesstable View Post
                                        I think the comment from englishivy says what I want to say - "For many it's about the destination and not about the journey".

                                        It has taken me years to find that quiet, nice moving horse and he's not even ready for the ring yet. I say to my trainer; I am in no hurry. That's why I like my trainer....

                                        I don't know if I am going to have a wining horse - but I will keep working with him knowing I will do what is best for his health and not best for my destination....

                                        ....I also think that destination for some they feel will bring them fortune and fame - and that's when they do whatever they need to - even things that are wrong, risky or hurtful. But there are still some of us that want the destination to be a positive journey.
                                        I think this post reflects the attitude of the vast majority of horse people who ride and show and just enjoy horses. Winning in great, but it's icing on the cake for most, since being around the horses is the biggest reward.

                                        The tiny percentage of horse people who go about it the wrong way don't reflect the rest of us any more than Lance Armstrong reflects every person who sits on a bike. In both sports, there are literally millions of people participating in a fun, ethical way, but that isn't what gets front page coverage from the New York Times.

                                        By all means, let's keep trying to improve things, but let's not let the actions of a few spoil the enjoyment of so many.

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                                        • Original Poster

                                          #40
                                          Originally posted by Moderator 3 View Post
                                          Please keep this thread on the broad topic/ideas introduced in the OP rather then focusing on specific individuals.

                                          Mod 3

                                          Thanks for leaving this open for general discussion on things we may be able to do...and how to deal with the fact nobody speaks up for fear of being bullied, blacklisted or sued by the really big operators involved in this who exert great influence with the powers that be and are, in a way, "Too Big to Fail".

                                          BTW, I also used to fill out a D&M form if we did any kind of minor procedure or treated a minor condition within a few days of competing (like the dex 3 days out for rash on a horse already on the grounds)-just in case it did not clear as expected or a mistake in dosage occured. Also because they can test anything on the grounds, showing or not. You'd still come up positive but have a good paper trail establishing legit reason to merit just a slap on the wrist.

                                          But that was 10 years ago, I don't know what is necessary today, if anything as IIRC there have been some rule changes about allowable concentrations since then.
                                          When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                                          The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

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