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Doping Takes Center Stage At USEF Convention

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  • Ghazzu
    replied
    Originally posted by ynl063w View Post
    I understand what you are saying. What I am saying is that I don't see anything in the Therapeutic Substance Provisions indicating that a D & M Report Form will mitigate disciplinary actions with regards to a horse that tests over the allowable limits for a non-forbidden substance. D & M forms are specific to forbidden substances, and dex is not a forbidden substance. It is allowable to 3 ng/mL; anything over that limit would be subject to disciplinary action.
    And I maintain that what disciplinary action is taken might depend on whether there was evidence that there was a legitimate reason the drug was in excess.
    I'm not saying the violation would be dismissed, I'm saying it might result in less of a penalty than if there were no report detailing the dose that was given, the reason, and the time it was administered.

    If I were making the rules, dexamethasone would be a prohibited substance, any road.

    Leave a comment:


  • ynl063w
    replied
    Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
    What I'm saying is that, should a horse be treated and withdrawn from competition for what *should* be enough time for the levels to drop to below the acceptable threshold, and the horse ends up slightly exceeding that threshold, the presence of a D&M report might well mitigate the disciplinary measures taken, just the same way that a D&M report filed for a prohibited substance used for a valid therapeutic reason would help explain why there might be trace amounts present.
    I understand what you are saying. What I am saying is that I don't see anything in the Therapeutic Substance Provisions indicating that a D & M Report Form will mitigate disciplinary actions with regards to a horse that tests over the allowable limits for a non-forbidden substance. D & M forms are specific to forbidden substances, and dex is not a forbidden substance. It is allowable to 3 ng/mL; anything over that limit would be subject to disciplinary action.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ghazzu
    replied
    Originally posted by ynl063w View Post
    The limit for dex is 3 ng/mL per USEF Therapeutic Substance Provisions. I didn't see anything that indicates a D & M Report Form would make it acceptable for a horse to test over that limit, but I could have missed that part.
    I'm not saying it is "acceptable" for a horse to be over the limit simply because a drug was used at higher than allowed dosages for a valid therapuetic purpose.
    What I'm saying is that, should a horse be treated and withdrawn from competition for what *should* be enough time for the levels to drop to below the acceptable threshold, and the horse ends up slightly exceeding that threshold, the presence of a D&M report might well mitigate the disciplinary measures taken, just the same way that a D&M report filed for a prohibited substance used for a valid therapeutic reason would help explain why there might be trace amounts present.

    In my particular case, I withdrew the horse from competition for the duration of the show.
    But he was on the grounds, had been entered, and was theoretically eligible to be drug tested.

    Leave a comment:


  • CBoylen
    replied
    You're absolutely right, I never assume the USEF will interpret anything a certain way. But I do always assume the rules only offer a degree of protection if it's expressedly provided.

    Leave a comment:


  • tricolor
    replied
    Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
    I wouldn't assume that your interpretation of this situation is necessarily the one that USEF would use.
    It isn't a matter of interpretation. GR411 is titled "Conditions for Therapeutic Administrations of Forbidden Substances" and is very clear under what circumstances a medication report should be filed, i.e., when a horse competing under the therapeutic substances provisions is administered a forbidden substance. Dexamethasone is not a forbidden substance so filling out a medication report because you treated your horse for hives and might test over the threshold limit is unnecessary and does nothing for you under the rules to mitigate a positive test result. There is a special provision in GR411 for filing a report for the administration of banamine, which is a therapeutic substance, when a horse has already been given another NSAID to potentially avoid a stacking violation. Given that the Steward has to review and sign each medication report, filing them for no legitimate reason seems like a waste of time and resources that could be better spent elsewhere by busy Stewards.

    Leave a comment:


  • ynl063w
    replied
    The limit for dex is 3 ng/mL per USEF Therapeutic Substance Provisions. I didn't see anything that indicates a D & M Report Form would make it acceptable for a horse to test over that limit, but I could have missed that part.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ghazzu
    replied
    Originally posted by CBoylen View Post
    Forbidden substance, yes. Legal substance, no. Documentation in that case will if anything be detrimental if it would come to a hearing. It implies you had concern the horse would test over, and unlike in the case of a forbidden substance, does nothing to absolve you of guilt.
    I wouldn't assume that your interpretation of this situation is necessarily the one that USEF would use.

    Leave a comment:


  • justathought
    replied
    Originally posted by CBoylen View Post
    There is no provision under the rules that I am aware of for using the med report in that manner. For legal medications the limit is the limit regardless of explanation. Otherwise there is an incentive to abuse the med report process.
    Don't think you have addressed the situation I raised. The horse is scratched, medication given under vet advice, report filed. Time allowed for horse to recover and meds to clear. Horse returns to showing and is tested and is over limit....

    Yes it's possible that it was medicated again for non-medical issues.... And it that case using the med report would be "an incentive" to abuse the report....

    BUT why is having good information and control ever a bad idea. I did not say that the rules were not what you express but that the rule was poorly drafted

    I would much rather have a track record through which one could prove abuse than no track record at all - and that it seems is what you are suggesting in the case a legal medications. In fact, technology is quickly approaching the point where requiring the reporting and tracking of all medications could be done easily.

    Leave a comment:


  • CBoylen
    replied
    There is no provision under the rules that I am aware of for using the med report in that manner. For legal medications the limit is the limit regardless of explanation. Otherwise there is an incentive to abuse the med report process.

    Leave a comment:


  • justathought
    replied
    Originally posted by CBoylen View Post
    Forbidden substance, yes. Legal substance, no. Documentation in that case will if anything be detrimental if it would come to a hearing. It implies you had concern the horse would test over, and unlike in the case of a forbidden substance, does nothing to absolve you of guilt.
    Don't understand this.... The horse is scratched and a report is filed that a legal medication was used, perhaps in an amount exceeding the limit for showing, for medical reasons by a vet. Later, I am assuming after the horse has recovered and after the drug, or at least the excess amount should have cleared the horse's system, the horse shows, is tested, and is found to be over the limit.

    You say the report has negative implications because it demonstrates a concern that the horse will be over the limit. You also say that it does nothing to absolve you of guilt.

    I disagree with your analysis for a number of reasons. First, because unless we are all going to blood test our horses once we have medicated for medical reasons there is no absolutely certain way to know when a particular horse has fully metabolized a drug. I don't think we are all going to blood test. And yes I do realize you could wait extra time to return to showing.... Second, the report already indicates responsibility. There is no question as to what was done or when or why. It serves as explanation. A system thatndiscurages reporting is counter-productive. Finally, it does NOT imply a suspicion that the horse is over the limit. It reports an event and documents a medical condition for a scratched horse and creates a paper trail.

    I may not understand the rules perfectly, but objectively if what cboylen says is true it strikes me that it is a poorly drafted rule. Ultimately, if the horse later shows and tests over the limit, there would be responsibility but it seems to me that the report would provide evidence that might impact what type of penalty were imposed - a lesser one would be in order given the paper trail and the medical condition than in a case where the drug was used for non-medical reasons.

    Leave a comment:


  • CBoylen
    replied
    Originally posted by poltroon View Post
    I have always understood that if you were on the show grounds, administered a forbidden (or any) substance as part of an injury or illness, and scratched, that you still were to file a D&M report. Scratching does not technically relieve you from drug testing, but obviously a veterinarian treating an injury is appropriate and you just document the whole thing.
    Forbidden substance, yes. Legal substance, no. Documentation in that case will if anything be detrimental if it would come to a hearing. It implies you had concern the horse would test over, and unlike in the case of a forbidden substance, does nothing to absolve you of guilt.

    Leave a comment:


  • poltroon
    replied
    Originally posted by englishivy View Post
    On a side bar:
    What sport governed by USEF is the biggest/has the greatest influence? Not to sound rude, but sometimes I forget that USEF has other disciplines to govern over as well as our sport. Do those disciplines have as many concerns and issues with USEF as H/J?
    H/J is the largest group.

    Most of the other disciplines have strong affiliates that handle more of their issues. H/J didn't have any affiliate for a long time and so it was the soul of AHSA/USEF in many ways for some time.

    Having experienced several, I think perhaps the best and most effective of these affiliates is USEA (Eventing).

    Leave a comment:


  • poltroon
    replied
    Originally posted by CBoylen View Post
    Why did you file a med report?
    I have always understood that if you were on the show grounds, administered a forbidden (or any) substance as part of an injury or illness, and scratched, that you still were to file a D&M report. Scratching does not technically relieve you from drug testing, but obviously a veterinarian treating an injury is appropriate and you just document the whole thing.

    Leave a comment:


  • poltroon
    replied
    Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
    It would be a bureaucratic nightmare, most likely, but I'd love to see a mandate that any medication administered on show grounds required the filing of a D&M report.
    I think in California we're obligated to file more D&M reports than the rest of y'all due to the state doping laws (which apply to any show with classes that cost more than $4).

    Hmm, seems so... and now I know why I never heard of robaxin before I joined COTH: in California, it requires a 24 hour withdrawal, as does dex.

    http://www.doctorramey.com/breaking-...f-rules-11513/

    Leave a comment:


  • Ghazzu
    replied
    Originally posted by CBoylen View Post
    I don't believe you can use a med report for that purpose. For administration of a forbidden substance under therapeudic circumstances, you can. But for an allowed therapeutic substance I think you have to refrain from competing until the likelihood it will test over the limit has passed. As in that med report would do you no good should the horse test for too much dex. At least that is how I've always understood it.
    Yes, but if the horse has been withdrawn from competition for a time period which should result in his being within limits and ends up being over, it is documentation.
    Not using it as an excuse to give more than allowed levels and then go ahead and show.

    Leave a comment:


  • vxf111
    replied
    Originally posted by CBoylen View Post
    I don't believe you can use a med report for that purpose. For administration of a forbidden substance under therapeudic circumstances, you can. But for an allowed therapeutic substance I think you have to refrain from competing until the likelihood it will test over the limit has passed. As in that med report would do you no good should the horse test for too much dex. At least that is how I've always understood it.
    I always thought so too. You can't give more than the permitted levels of, say, bute, and then do a med report and be safe. The levels are what the levels are and disclosing that you gave more than the permitted levels it is protection if they test the horse and discover the levels are too high. But I could have been misinterpreting the rules all this time.

    Leave a comment:


  • CBoylen
    replied
    Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
    Out of concern that the horse(s) in question had received more than the allowable dose of dexamethasone.
    I always like to err on the side of caution.
    There was a possibility that the other horse involved might be competing (hives incident was on the eve of a multiday show.
    I don't believe you can use a med report for that purpose. For administration of a forbidden substance under therapeudic circumstances, you can. But for an allowed therapeutic substance I think you have to refrain from competing until the likelihood it will test over the limit has passed. As in that med report would do you no good should the horse test for too much dex. At least that is how I've always understood it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Peggy
    replied
    Originally posted by wishfulthinking711 View Post
    Also there is no chance the local levels will change first. If anything it is worse in the local levels for doping because there are no drug tests to catch anyone. The judges are less informed and YES they do pin the doped out horses. It can be pretty bad on the local level but I try to stick the association that is the least biased and has the least amount of cheaters :/
    There is drug testing done by the state here in California. So maybe that helps a bit. The rules are nearly the same as USEF so people may use dex, Mg etc. I won a medal final, albeit a minor one, with a scoot after the last fence. I would hope that at least one of the two judges noticed it.

    Leave a comment:


  • leyla25
    replied
    Originally posted by MHM View Post
    There are no "past" presidents of the USHJA.

    There has only been one president since the organization started, and he's still there, so he is the current president.
    I meant the past president and founders of the AHJF which merged with the USHJA.

    Leave a comment:


  • wishfulthinking711
    replied
    Also there is no chance the local levels will change first. If anything it is worse in the local levels for doping because there are no drug tests to catch anyone. The judges are less informed and YES they do pin the doped out horses. It can be pretty bad on the local level but I try to stick the association that is the least biased and has the least amount of cheaters :/

    Leave a comment:

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