• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Doping Takes Center Stage At USEF Convention

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
    I wouldn't assume that your interpretation of this situation is necessarily the one that USEF would use.
    It isn't a matter of interpretation. GR411 is titled "Conditions for Therapeutic Administrations of Forbidden Substances" and is very clear under what circumstances a medication report should be filed, i.e., when a horse competing under the therapeutic substances provisions is administered a forbidden substance. Dexamethasone is not a forbidden substance so filling out a medication report because you treated your horse for hives and might test over the threshold limit is unnecessary and does nothing for you under the rules to mitigate a positive test result. There is a special provision in GR411 for filing a report for the administration of banamine, which is a therapeutic substance, when a horse has already been given another NSAID to potentially avoid a stacking violation. Given that the Steward has to review and sign each medication report, filing them for no legitimate reason seems like a waste of time and resources that could be better spent elsewhere by busy Stewards.

    Comment


    • You're absolutely right, I never assume the USEF will interpret anything a certain way. But I do always assume the rules only offer a degree of protection if it's expressedly provided.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ynl063w View Post
        The limit for dex is 3 ng/mL per USEF Therapeutic Substance Provisions. I didn't see anything that indicates a D & M Report Form would make it acceptable for a horse to test over that limit, but I could have missed that part.
        I'm not saying it is "acceptable" for a horse to be over the limit simply because a drug was used at higher than allowed dosages for a valid therapuetic purpose.
        What I'm saying is that, should a horse be treated and withdrawn from competition for what *should* be enough time for the levels to drop to below the acceptable threshold, and the horse ends up slightly exceeding that threshold, the presence of a D&M report might well mitigate the disciplinary measures taken, just the same way that a D&M report filed for a prohibited substance used for a valid therapeutic reason would help explain why there might be trace amounts present.

        In my particular case, I withdrew the horse from competition for the duration of the show.
        But he was on the grounds, had been entered, and was theoretically eligible to be drug tested.
        "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

        ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
          What I'm saying is that, should a horse be treated and withdrawn from competition for what *should* be enough time for the levels to drop to below the acceptable threshold, and the horse ends up slightly exceeding that threshold, the presence of a D&M report might well mitigate the disciplinary measures taken, just the same way that a D&M report filed for a prohibited substance used for a valid therapeutic reason would help explain why there might be trace amounts present.
          I understand what you are saying. What I am saying is that I don't see anything in the Therapeutic Substance Provisions indicating that a D & M Report Form will mitigate disciplinary actions with regards to a horse that tests over the allowable limits for a non-forbidden substance. D & M forms are specific to forbidden substances, and dex is not a forbidden substance. It is allowable to 3 ng/mL; anything over that limit would be subject to disciplinary action.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ynl063w View Post
            I understand what you are saying. What I am saying is that I don't see anything in the Therapeutic Substance Provisions indicating that a D & M Report Form will mitigate disciplinary actions with regards to a horse that tests over the allowable limits for a non-forbidden substance. D & M forms are specific to forbidden substances, and dex is not a forbidden substance. It is allowable to 3 ng/mL; anything over that limit would be subject to disciplinary action.
            And I maintain that what disciplinary action is taken might depend on whether there was evidence that there was a legitimate reason the drug was in excess.
            I'm not saying the violation would be dismissed, I'm saying it might result in less of a penalty than if there were no report detailing the dose that was given, the reason, and the time it was administered.

            If I were making the rules, dexamethasone would be a prohibited substance, any road.
            "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

            ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

            Comment


            • So you wasted everyones time to file a DM report on a non-showing horse? You do realize that while a non-showing horse can be tested, they can't hold you accountable for anything that might show up? The horse has to entered in a class to have a violation occur.

              Comment


              • Wasted everyone's time?
                Right.
                Took the steward all of about a minute and a half.
                Horses had been entered and mine was scratched.
                The other had several earlier classes scratched, but trainer and owner chose to wait and see how things went before scratching all of them.

                I was fine with it, steward was fine with it, sorry it twisted up y'all's knickers so tightly.
                "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Molly99 View Post
                  So you wasted everyones time to file a DM report on a non-showing horse? You do realize that while a non-showing horse can be tested, they can't hold you accountable for anything that might show up? The horse has to entered in a class to have a violation occur.
                  No one's time was wasted --- and if it were a multi-week show, the earlier treatment might well explain the presence of a detectable amount in the horse's system.

                  Whatever the rules -- its seems that a number of people are criticizing disclosure of information here because it was not mandated ....

                  Since when is it good to discourage the disclosure of information. If our rules do that, then they are not really productive rules IMHO

                  Comment


                  • I would like to see a D&M report required for dex always... and I would like to see it be a public and publicly accessible record.
                    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Molly99 View Post
                      You do realize that while a non-showing horse can be tested, they can't hold you accountable for anything that might show up? The horse has to entered in a class to have a violation occur.
                      Where in the rule does it say that a horse may be tested if it has not been entered in the first place? That would truly be a waste of resources.

                      GR402 Testing.
                      1. Horses and/or ponies competing at a Licensed Competition are subject to examination by a licensed veterinarian who must be appointed by the Administrator of
                      the Equine Drugs and Medications Program. Said appointed veterinarian, with the
                      approval of the Administrator, may appoint a technician to perform certain duties
                      under this Rule. The examination may include physical, urine, blood tests and/or
                      any other test or procedure at the discretion of said veterinarian necessary to effectuate the purposes of this rule. Said veterinarian may examine any or all horses
                      and/or ponies in a class or all classes in a competition or any horses and/or ponies
                      entered in any class, whether in competition or not, if on the competition grounds,
                      or any horse and/or pony withdrawn by any exhibitor within 24 hours prior to a
                      class for which it has been entered.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by MHM View Post

                        or any horse and/or pony withdrawn by any exhibitor within 24 hours prior to a
                        class for which it has been entered.
                        It was this portion of the rule right here that prompted the filing.
                        "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                        ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                        Comment


                        • This thread, and others like it, invariably deteriorate into an argument between the acceptable amounts of this drug or that, intent, should a horse be shown on any med, etc. Most everyone has valid points . The number of posts indicates everyone's sincerity and passion for their horses well being.
                          My Dad used to say that by the time we were 5 years old, our basic personality was pretty well in place; Our moral compass was set. Given the number of 'horsemen/women' out there who believe that chemical enhancement rather than hard work and training is the optimum way to win, it would seem that their parents set an extremely poor example for them as kids, teaching them the message that any road to # 1 was a good road. Fines and suspensions won't change what they are. Their self esteem is already so low that 'cheating' with drugs and putting horse and rider at risk is acceptable as long as they keep their customers happy with ribbons and trophies.They are still little kids, looking for parental admiration.
                          The thing is, they don't care what we think. They don't care about the USEF rules. Like a little kid, they only care about getting caught in the act. That they'd like to avoid. So protest away, argue the finer points, but know that a cheater is a cheater, period. No healthy animal needs a regimen of multiple medications!!! A gram of Bute after a hard day is one thing but when the sheer number of meds ultimately serves to mask emerging and potentially lethal issues, as an industry, we've gone too far.
                          If all you COTHers are serious, then stop arguing on line. If you're at a show and you see drugging going on, whip out your trusty cell and take pictures. Report abuse to the stewards. Be the good child your parents raised you to be and do the right thing to protect our sport and our animals.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
                            It was this portion of the rule right here that prompted the filing.
                            Yes, my point was that the horse must be entered in the first place before testing becomes an issue.

                            If I bring an extra horse that is not entered in any classes, it doesn't get tested just because it's on the showgrounds.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Purepony View Post

                              If all you COTHers are serious, then stop arguing on line. If you're at a show and you see drugging going on, whip out your trusty cell and take pictures. Report abuse to the stewards. Be the good child your parents raised you to be and do the right thing to protect our sport and our animals.
                              Um.. If a dead pony, with a person who admitted injecting it, a medication list ,and a USEF member filing an official protest , ends with USEF saying it is unable to do anything because it cannot force cooperation by the party involved, how on earth do you think having "cell phone photos" of people will have any effect?

                              The article mentioned in the title of this thread didn't really put USEF in a good light, their response to the issue was weak. Hopefully something will change. I'm not holding my breath..

                              ETA I think discussion is a good thing.
                              Last edited by skydy; Jan. 20, 2013, 05:07 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Pictures of what, exactly? How is a picture of anything supposed to be proof of illegal drugging? You'd have to have uninterrupted video starting with a clear view of the label on the bottle as the shot was drawn up.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by CBoylen View Post
                                  Pictures of what, exactly? How is a picture of anything supposed to be proof of illegal drugging? You'd have to have uninterrupted video starting with a clear view of the label on the bottle as the shot was drawn up.
                                  Exactly.
                                  Purepony, It's not that simple. Thus the discussion...

                                  Comment


                                  • There is no way to identify - for the purposes of drug testing - a non showing/never entered horse.

                                    Comment


                                    • In this age of technology, it would be relatively simple to require those showing to enter any drugs administered to a horse at a show -- having terminals available to those showing already exists. A remote secure system with a login is not new or challenging technology.

                                      People who cheat will still cheat BUT it would be interesting to see who enters nothing == and it would be equally interesting to have a record of what is actually being administered. Having this kind of data - aggregated would allow all kinds of interesting analysis of what is actually being administered at shows and for what.

                                      In an information age, it is amazing how little information is actually available in this area.

                                      Comment


                                      • All right, maybe pictures are ineffective, even if the animal pictured has no drug form placed with the show. Actually. I was thinking more along the lines of plastering photos of individuals injecting horses all over the Internet. Unsuspecting owners would begin to get the message and ask ?????. You could even have a FB page just to share. But I'll accept it's a bad idea. If USEF won't act, and the BNTs are soooo powerful, and we as horsemen can only vent on boards like this and do nothing, then I surrender. Drug away. Why put ourselves on the line when everyone seems to agree that the situation for hunter horses/ponies and Eq horses is hopeless. There are lots of you out there. Maybe if each of you sent a signed (as well as e-mail copy) of your outrage and ideas to USEF, along with your membership number, they might take you seriously.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by Purepony View Post
                                          All right, maybe pictures are ineffective, even if the animal pictured has no drug form placed with the show. Actually. I was thinking more along the lines of plastering photos of individuals injecting horses all over the Internet. Unsuspecting owners would begin to get the message and ask ?????. .
                                          There are many legal injectable substances that do not require a "drug form". Most owners are aware of that.

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X