• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

When did working student become title for UNPAID BARN SLAVE....

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • When did working student become title for UNPAID BARN SLAVE....

    I was looking through a reputable equestrian website at jobs. One was for an eventer I haven't heard of, they want a 6 day a week barn help, in exchange for board for 1 horse and a lesson a week. Must be the most expensive board in the country...

    It's crazy that people expect a slave to work for them in exchange for NOTHING....Because they call it a Working Student...

    Working students should be respectable learning experience, NOT FREE LABOR FOR NOTHING....
    " iCOTH " window/bumper stickers. Wood Routed Stall and Farm Signs
    http://www.bluemooncustomsigns.com

  • #2
    Has it ever been anything else?

    FWIW, in my experience a real "working student" position where you get to ride a few a day under the eye of the trainer (who gives suggestions if not a formal lesson) is well worth cleaning stalls and tacking horses, if you want to learn to really ride.

    Now, the eventing working student positions where you do everything and PAY for it, that I do not understand.

    Comment


    • #3
      When I was a working student 20+ years ago for someone who had ridden on a European Olympic team, the deal was as follows:

      Board for 1 horse
      1 lesson a day, M-F
      Housing for me ( I had my own cottage in a phenom setting)
      I worked 6 days a week with 12 horses to take care of

      I worked my butt off. On the weekends I would try to find extra jobs doing farm care, braiding, etc. to help cover my horse's additional bills (farrier, etc.) and put some food in my fridge.

      When I shipped my horse home to pasture (soundness issue) and didn't have a horse, I was paid a fair wage for my work taking into consideration that my housing was being supplied.

      If you really want to be a working student, I'd put the word out via the grapevine. There are some situations I wouldn't go into for anything (one of my friends interviewed at a WELL KNOWN eventer's barn and was told the heat in the working student's housing was NOT to exceed 60 degrees and only one light on in the house at a time - there were literally bare bulbs hanging from cords in the ceiling - this place was in New Enggland. brrr).

      Then again, I would also be more than willing to hustle and work my butt off with a great sense of humility. The girl who was a working student immediately before me was fired b/c she complained that currying the horses for more than a few minutes made her tired.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by grandprixjump View Post
        I was looking through a reputable equestrian website at jobs. One was for an eventer I haven't heard of, they want a 6 day a week barn help, in exchange for board for 1 horse and a lesson a week. Must be the most expensive board in the country...

        It's crazy that people expect a slave to work for them in exchange for NOTHING....Because they call it a Working Student...

        Working students should be respectable learning experience, NOT FREE LABOR FOR NOTHING....
        OK Then don't apply for it. If no one fills the position they will raise the benefits. But I bet they get plenty of applications.

        Comment


        • #5
          To answer your question - since the beginning of time

          You do not mention how large of an operation is offering this position. Six days a week for a smaller barn (12 or less horses) in exchange for board and 4 lessons a month ain't to shabby.
          "I'm not strange, weird, off, nor crazy. My reality is just different from yours."
          ~Lewis Carroll

          Comment


          • #6
            If you are getting board for a horse, housing for you, a formal lesson a day and maybe some pocket money, you are doing well in the WS pay scale.

            IMO, the lessons need to be every day. And you need to get to school some of theirs with supervision.

            The position is close to slavery. But! Don't underestimate the value of the informal teaching that goes on. And a good trainer will supply you with connections, too.

            I can see not wanting to bring a horse, but IMO, no trainer is going to provide enough compensation to make up for the board you'll pay on your horse elsewhere and the missing training on your project horse you'd get if you brought him.
            The armchair saddler
            Politically Pro-Cat

            Comment


            • #7
              Don't apply for it if it does not suit you. Remember you are swapping minimum wage labor for rides on other peoples horses under the trainers supervision plus that one lesson plus board for your own. Almost always works out to more then what the work hours total, if housing is included the WS is actually coming out ahead.

              But its not a paying "job". Never has been a "job" with any sort of benefits and it works best for older teens. Plus those that do bring a personal horse find they have no time left for it let alone money for surprise vet and farrier.

              There is one BNR/T in Eventing that CHARGES for the opportunity to be a "working student". Charges ALOT.

              The best way to break in would be to get a job as a groom or even barn labor in a good barn and work your way up from there.
              When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

              The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

              Comment


              • #8
                When I did it I got a small stipend and room and board (room in trainer's house). I rode a few a day and she tried to make sure I got to jump a horse most days.

                I had to pay for my own horse (they did not own the facility, so no free board), but she helped me with it every day.

                I had to find other jobs on the side (braiding, etc) to pay my way but I do not feel I was gypped at all.

                The situation you describe sounds exploitative, but it depends on what it is. If your work consists mostly of riding, helping, setting jumps and having learning opportunities (like mine was), it may not be so bad (although one lesson a week is not much). If your 'work' is only mucking, turnout, scrubbing buckets, etc, then it is most definitely free labor.
                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                "I know nothing with any certainty, but the sight of stars makes me dream." --Vincent Van Gogh

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  NO HOUSING and provide your own transportation...

                  Yes they might get a few people happy for that for a month or so. But with no housing and hours that say 42 per week.


                  FYI: I was a working student 20 or so years ago for an American Olympian, riding their horses daily, doing stalls one day a week and house/food provided. I also got a bit of spending money while there...
                  " iCOTH " window/bumper stickers. Wood Routed Stall and Farm Signs
                  http://www.bluemooncustomsigns.com

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Can a WS recieve unemployment benefits while doing the WS thing if all they get is board and lessons in exchange?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      My entire time in the horse world (30ish years) working student has been exactly a euphemism for unpaid barn worker.

                      I realize that sometimes out there, a "working student" gets to ride horses (whether schooling or just hacking or something of the sort),
                      however,
                      as a teenager, as well as an adult who did the gig on the side, my "working student" experiences NEVER included any riding outside of my lesson. I was never put on other horses, I rarely got to watch the training of the horses or others' lessons. I mucked stalls, did general farm labor, sometimes groomed for the trainer, and took my lesson. That's it.

                      My trainers have a "working student" right now, who has been to NAYRC. She only rides her own horses in their program; mostly, she cleans stalls and tack.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by pds View Post
                        Can a WS recieve unemployment benefits while doing the WS thing if all they get is board and lessons in exchange?
                        I can't believe this is even a question...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Yes, there are some slave labor WS positions, which is why I was always reccomended to go through my trainers. They could find me stuff where I actually got to ride some horse flesh and learn, in exchange for the un-fun stuff. There are some WS positions that provide no riding and all barn help, and they wanted me to avoid those because really what good was that.

                          One of your girls is a WS currently for an Olympian. Her days consist of hacking horses (both his and clients), grooming (though they had grooms, so she doesn't have to do that often), and she does some stalls (because she was taught to work her butt off for her keep). She also gets a lesson on her horse everyday (unless they want her to have a day off), and she also sets fences, rotates horses on the walker, and she does a lot of show entries and fixing of show entry mistakes (love the guy she works for, he is just a little unorganized).

                          At shows, she does have to groom more, cool down horses, warm up horses, clean tack, help feed, and do stalls. A little more work than at home but she also gets to listen to him and gets valuable coaching.

                          In return? She gets to go to shows, learn under an Olympian, and gets her horse schooled and trained by an Olympian, free room in his house, and she gets to catch-ride nice horses! Yes, her mother pays for board for the horse and all the show fees, farrier, vet... but really what she gets out of this is priceless! And the guy she works for will hand her money somtimes if she goes above and beyond helping out at a horse show.

                          She is more than thrilled with her position, but our trainer also made sure she didn't get crapped on by finding her someone reputable.
                          www.thetexasequestrian.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by horsegal301 View Post
                            I can't believe this is even a question...

                            Well if they are not getting paid $ as a working student what would prevent them from collecting unemployment?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              [QUOTE=grandprixjump;6783663]they want a 6 day a week barn help, in exchange for board for 1 horse and a lesson a week. Must be the most expensive board in the country... It's crazy that people expect a slave to work for them in exchange for NOTHING....QUOTE]

                              Board and one lesson isn't nothing. In fact it is quite a lot at many larger show barns. What I pay for board and lessons is probably equal to the amount a person in a low level job would make in a month. It is a very large chunk of my income.

                              You also forget that invaluable experience that comes with being able to watch a respectable, talented pro in action and become familiar with the daily workings of a show barn. This, too, is worth something to a lot of people.

                              If the situation isn't worth it, don't take the WS position. But what is "nothing" to you might be valuable to someone else and vice versa.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Not only that, being a working student is being an apprentice. Similar to going to college, except when you go to college you actually have a huge bill to pay at the end as well - try being a grad student.

                                Which means that you are actually getting quite a bit in return, valuable expertise in many areas including learning how the barn works, and all sorts of informal training as to how to run the business, how to deal with difficult horses, being networked by the person who has earned it etc. etc.

                                It's not slave labor, it's called paying your dues.

                                If you work hard enough, the person will likely open other opportunities for you. But they aren't going to just automatically give you the world, nor should they.

                                You may have to work two jobs. That isn't a bad thing. You may find that in this business you HAVE to work two jobs to make it work all of your life.

                                Again - not a bad thing.

                                If I didn't have the obligations I do (a family), I'd kill to be able to go back and do that again. I would absolutely positively grovel to be allowed to continue to have that experience (I did have some of them when I was young, but I didn't understand them at the time).

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by pds View Post
                                  Well if they are not getting paid $ as a working student what would prevent them from collecting unemployment?
                                  Ummm...pride? With a dash of ethics?

                                  Plus you would have needed to have lost a regular full time job fairly recently to qualify.
                                  When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                                  The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by findeight View Post
                                    Ummm...pride?
                                    Who would know unless WS told someone.

                                    I'm just saying that it may be a viable alternative to starving while working as WS.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by pds View Post
                                      Who would know unless WS told someone.

                                      I'm just saying that it may be a viable alternative to starving while working as WS.
                                      Probably be better off loooking for a job that actually pays a decent wage not this that leads to...no kind of decent paying job for a very long time. And you would be lying on the unemployment forms-I realize that does not bother alot of people.
                                      When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                                      The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by pds View Post
                                        Can a WS recieve unemployment benefits while doing the WS thing if all they get is board and lessons in exchange?
                                        Speaking from my wannabe tax guru armchair, Yes (with two caveats):

                                        1. Collecting unemployment means that you are actively looking for work and are available for work. Can you meet that standard while you are being a WS? Oh, and the labor dept of your state reserves the right to ask for proof of your efforts to find work. Defraud them at your own risk (and that off pissing off people who look down on folks collecting unemployment at all).

                                        2. If the barn submits a 1099 for the value of that stall and board, your are in a bit of hot water. Those things count as "income" for tax purposes.

                                        I'm not sure how these IRS and Unemployment things fit together.
                                        The armchair saddler
                                        Politically Pro-Cat

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X