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Judge with chip on shoulder?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by BWW View Post
    At any rate, now that we are past the animosity that my post generated (at least I hope we are - if all you have is a senseless dig, please be an adult and just post nothing), my post was intended to generate some discussion about posters experiences dealing with similar situations. Beyond what was already made clear by many of you (that you would never approach the official like I did), what I would be interested in hearing is your stories and how resolved. After all, I am sure we will encounter some of the same as time goes on. But please spare me the holier than thou stuff...


    Whenever you have a problem with a show official, your best place to start is either with the steward or the show management. And you're probably best off talking to show management first, by going up to the people working the office and starting tactfully there.

    It sounds like what happened was inappropriate. You can elect to stop with the people on site or you can file a complaint through USEF.

    No matter how tactful or well meaning you are, going and speaking to the official directly is not a great idea, especially if you are unclear about the rules and the various roles of the people at the show. Your daughter's trainer is there to advise you on such matters as well, and probably you should ask the trainer before going to show management. If you don't trust the trainer's judgement on such matters, then you might want to rethink who your daughter rides with. That's not meant to be snarky, only thought-provoking.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

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    • #62
      Originally posted by MHM View Post
      Frankly, if the OP does not know the difference between a steward and a judge, and their respective roles, s/he probably should not be accosting anyone at a horse show.

      Also, think of the example you are setting for your four year old child. Are you teaching your child by example to react with grace and resolve under adversity? Or are you teaching your child to moan and groan and complain when things don't fall perfectly into place?

      Points to ponder before the next show.
      Yabbut, the OP's kid is 4 and the OP is gunning to have the W/T kid show in the leadline class because they can and it's on the Grand Prix field.

      So dollars to donuts, the OP doesn't know lots about horse showing.
      The armchair saddler
      Politically Pro-Cat

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      • #63
        Originally posted by mvp View Post
        Yabbut, the OP's kid is 4 and the OP is gunning to have the W/T kid show in the leadline class because they can and it's on the Grand Prix field.

        So dollars to donuts, the OP doesn't know lots about horse showing.
        Or she thinks it is "hunting" as she called it about 10 posts ago.

        One does wonder about the trainer guiding her as well...
        When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

        The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by findeight View Post
          Many of us would be new to hunting too. I thought we were talking about horse shows, not fox hunts. My bad...
          Fox hunting has its own set of protocols as well. Noobs shouldn't mess with those, either.
          Last edited by mvp; Jan. 15, 2013, 01:08 AM.
          The armchair saddler
          Politically Pro-Cat

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          • #65
            Originally posted by mvp View Post
            Yabbut, the OP's kid is 4 and the OP is gunning to have the W/T kid show in the leadline class because they can and it's on the Grand Prix field.

            So dollars to donuts, the OP doesn't know lots about horse showing.
            Clearly.

            That doesn't change the basic premise of teaching by example the value of good sportsmanship and correct behavior. In any sport.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by BWW View Post
              At any rate, now that we are past the animosity that my post generated (at least I hope we are - if all you have is a senseless dig, please be an adult and just post nothing), my post was intended to generate some discussion about posters experiences dealing with similar situations. Beyond what was already made clear by many of you (that you would never approach the official like I did), what I would be interested in hearing is your stories and how resolved. After all, I am sure we will encounter some of the same as time goes on. But please spare me the holier than thou stuff...
              With all due respect, OP, *you* come off as "holier than thou" and also, you want what you want, the established rules of horse showing and sportsmanship be damned.

              To wit:

              Your kid being rattled by some steward (judge?) altercation, but then putting in a fine ride anyway is a Big Problem?

              Your kid is afraid to be subjected to the judge's scrutiny in the class because a steward yelled at a trainer in her viscinity?

              You, being new to it all, decided to give these show officials a lesson in general human relations?

              You want to send a kid who can ride by herself into "win" against kids who need a horse on a lead line because you like the fun pomp and circumstances of the Grand Prix field without a thought to the lack of sportsmanship?

              Ferchrissakes!

              I can't speak to "problems with judges who are on power trips" because I haven't gone out of my way to look for these. I signed up to be judged and to accept show management's decisions when I entered the horse show and paid my entry fees. I'd have to see a whole lot going wrong with a judge's decisions before I thought that the guy was drunk on power and abusing that.

              But really, someone judging little kids just isn't usually gunning for world domination.
              The armchair saddler
              Politically Pro-Cat

              Comment


              • #67
                I've brought the popcorn, someone else will have to go get the wine coolers, I'm underage.

                No but really what is going on here? Seems like both parties were out of line, but get over it. That sort of shit happens in the world and you need to learn to live with it, otherwise you have no business in the hunters.
                Mendokuse

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                • #68
                  For the record...

                  Jan. 14, 2013, 04:35 PM #1
                  BWW
                  BWW is online now Training Level

                  Join Date
                  Dec. 6, 2012
                  Posts
                  19

                  Default Judge with chip on shoulder?

                  We had a bizarre experience with a judge this weekend. This judge (who we had never shown in front of before) went off the deep end about something as my daughter was sitting on her pony at the endgate about to enter the ring (she is 4). He did it in front of us (rider and parents), the trainer (who his rant was directed against) and several kids in the barn and their parents.

                  Whether he was right or wrong (technically) is not the issue (though people who overheard it said he was full of hooey). But I think what he should have done is pulled the trainer aside and discussed it with her, out of earshot of everyone else. Instead, my daughter heard the whole thing, raised voice and all, and thought she was doing something wrong. She then said she did not want to go into the ring, although she did go in after we talked about it and did just fine.

                  Afterwards, I approached the judge and asked him (nicely, I wasn't a jerk) in the future if there are any issues, to simply pull the trainer aside and deal quietly with her instead of making a spectacle. I described to him the effect that his rant had on my daughter, and he seemed completely dumbfounded and unable to understand, although he agreed to keep it more quiet if there is a "next time".

                  I did not bring it to the attention of the show organizer, maybe I should have. We have shown in several of his shows, and will be showing there again in a few weeks. We are not complainers and are pretty laid back, but this guy really seemed to have a chip on his shoulder. Finally, yesterday afternoon, we overheard him complaining that kids who do Walk Trot should not be allowed to do Lead Line. Wow, is it really that big a deal? The show organizers certainly don't think so...

                  Other posters had problems with judges on a power trip?
                  Jan. 14, 2013, 06:02 PM #30
                  BWW
                  BWW is online now Training Level
                  Original Poster

                  Join Date
                  Dec. 6, 2012
                  Posts
                  19

                  Default

                  Let me clear this up. It was the steward who said it, not the judge. I meant to say the steward, not the judge - my error, my error.

                  The steward just walked over unannounced and "goes off". Did the trainer do something eariler to raise his ire? I don't know, not that I am aware of. What I do know is that he needs to use some decency and common sense when going about his business - simple as that. He was wrong to act that way, and needed to be called out for it. More than one Dad there said he needed more than that, but people were just in shock about it more than anything.

                  I am not talking about a situation where a judge gave us fewer points than we thought she deserved. Hey, the chips fall where they do, and that's it. And of course the kids need to have thick skin, I agree 100% with that, but his rant was not directed at my child, but the trainer. Why would a seasoned professional (assuming he is, I don't know), seeing that a 4 year old is about to enter the ring, go over and make a scene in front of 20 people? Does he not realize that the child may get uneasy?

                  Some may say "that's life in showing", OK, but it made a lot of people very angry this weekend, not the least of whom her parents (myself and my wife).


                  Really??


                  I can see the judge/steward posting something along the lines of...

                  *I witnessed inexcusable behavior" {who knows? it might well have been abuse of a horse or maltreatment of a child, for all we know} "and told the offending trainer never to do such a thing again in my sight. There's no way such behavior should be permitted or ignored, it was dangerous/cruel and someone needed to put a stop to it immediately. While I was a bit louder than necessary, it was an outrageous incident and certainly merited the reprimand.

                  Unbelievably, some helicopter parent goes off on me, trying to act like he was my dad, and objects to the fact that his precious little kid witnessed the reprimand and got her tiny nose out of joint. He said I made her *uneasy*! Instead of teaching his kid how the real world works (trainers who don't follow the rules earn negative consequences) and perhaps helping her learn to cope, this guy goes on a power trip and tries to insist that I was wrong, that his kid's reactions were my responsibility, that I shouldn't have dared to make him mad, and that he somehow felt it was his job to teach me how to behave. Can you imagine the nerve?*


                  I'm not saying it happened that way, but do you get the point? I'm trying to show how it might have come across to the judge/steward and to an impartial observer (yes, I noticed you claimed that they all backed you up, but...who knows, maybe they did and maybe they didn't). You need to worry about you and your kid, perhaps help her learn from a negative experience (particularly one that had nothing to do with her or you!), and not try to teach another adult how to behave.

                  I think your kid would have gotten much more out of the experience if you had handled it differently by focusing on your responses instead of on how wrong the judge/steward was.

                  I agree with your comments in green.
                  Proofreading is your friend.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Well...OP asked and was answered. The judge/steward may have exhibited bad sportsmanship but OP committed a major horse show faux pas considered equally bad sportsmanship. Not to mention a bad example for her little rider who has much to learn about handling the pressures of competition and how to be a good sport.

                    Hopefully OP has gained enough knowledge to avoid further embarrassment.

                    Or not...I am out of wine from last weeks Churchill TBs resurrection. But I got popcorn.
                    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #70
                      Originally posted by mvp View Post
                      Yabbut, the OP's kid is 4 and the OP is gunning to have the W/T kid show in the leadline class because they can and it's on the Grand Prix field.

                      So dollars to donuts, the OP doesn't know lots about horse showing.
                      Nobody is gunning for anything. Let me give you some advice: Go out and make some money so you can show. Then you might not be so miserable. It makes you look small and weak to post here on this Board like that...on the other hand, if that's all you can do, that's a whole different problem. Get a life.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by BWW View Post
                        Nobody is gunning for anything. Let me give you some advice: Go out and make some money so you can show. Then you might not be so miserable. It makes you look small and weak to post here on this Board like that...on the other hand, if that's all you can do, that's a whole different problem. Get a life.
                        I gave you the benefit of the doubt, thinking you were new and trying to learn. (We've all been there and we've all made mistakes.) But you're not trying to learn at all. You're much more interested in getting retribution against those who have wronged you.

                        You're not going to get far on this BB this way. If you seek advice here, you'll want to thicken up your skin a bit. If you just attack people for answering your question, that won't get you far...
                        Born under a rock and owned by beasts!

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by BWW View Post
                          Nobody is gunning for anything. Let me give you some advice: Go out and make some money so you can show.
                          Oh...no...he..didn't!!

                          OP - per my earlier post I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. Now I'm pouring wine.
                          "I'm not strange, weird, off, nor crazy. My reality is just different from yours."
                          ~Lewis Carroll

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                          • Original Poster

                            #73
                            Originally posted by ako View Post
                            I gave you the benefit of the doubt, thinking you were new and trying to learn. (We've all been there and we've all made mistakes.) But you're not trying to learn at all. You're much more interested in getting retribution against those who have wronged you.

                            You're not going to get far on this BB this way. If you seek advice here, you'll want to thicken up your skin a bit. If you just attack people for answering your question, that won't get you far...
                            Advice is one thing, personal attacks are another. The poster who made comments about Meds....really?

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by BWW View Post
                              Finally, yesterday afternoon, we overheard him complaining that kids who do Walk Trot should not be allowed to do Lead Line. Wow, is it really that big a deal? The show organizers certainly don't think so...
                              I can't really comment on the rant as I have no idea what it was about and whether it was legitimate or not. I also have no idea what other people's perceptions were. One person's rant is another's discussion.

                              I will say, though, that I agree with a judge. If someone can ride independently in Walk/Trot, they have no business in leadline. Why in the world would you put a W/T-er in leadline in the first place? It makes no sense to me at all...with the exception of another shot at taking home a ribbon...which is the worst reason possible.
                              Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
                              Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by BWW View Post
                                Nobody is gunning for anything. Let me give you some advice: Go out and make some money so you can show. Then you might not be so miserable. It makes you look small and weak to post here on this Board like that...on the other hand, if that's all you can do, that's a whole different problem. Get a life.
                                Really?

                                How do you know that I don't show or have gobs of money which I spend showing (or don't spend it that way)? And how did we get to the question about my tax bracket At.All? But, if we follow your line of inference, then everyone here (present company included) is dirt poor and predisposed to anger because they are posting on COTH?

                                Look, if you dispense with this kind of "advice" I see how your problem at the horse show got started.

                                I hope you come to like horse showing a little better in the future.
                                The armchair saddler
                                Politically Pro-Cat

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                                • Original Poster

                                  #76
                                  Originally posted by mvp View Post
                                  Really?

                                  How do you know that I don't show or have gobs of money which I spend showing (or don't spend it that way)? And how did we get to the question about my tax bracket At.All? But, if we follow your line of inference, then everyone here (present company included) is dirt poor and predisposed to anger because they are posting on COTH?

                                  Look, if you dispense with this kind of "advice" I see how your problem at the horse show got started.

                                  I hope you come to like horse showing a little better in the future.
                                  You read far too much into my post. Do not attack others if you don't want pushback. That's a life lesson for you. It doesn't take a big person to sit tucked away in their room posting like you do. And please, don't worry about us in the shows....we do just fine thank you.

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    Originally posted by BWW View Post
                                    Advice is one thing, personal attacks are another. The poster who made comments about Meds....really?
                                    Yes. But that was one person, I believe. These things quickly become a pile-on if people start reacting in anger. Then everybody makes popcorn...
                                    Born under a rock and owned by beasts!

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      Originally posted by BWW View Post
                                      At any rate, now that we are past the animosity that my post generated (at least I hope we are - if all you have is a senseless dig, please be an adult and just post nothing), my post was intended to generate some discussion about posters experiences dealing with similar situations. Beyond what was already made clear by many of you (that you would never approach the official like I did), what I would be interested in hearing is your stories and how resolved. After all, I am sure we will encounter some of the same as time goes on. But please spare me the holier than thou stuff...
                                      Hi BWW ... Because you asked and I think you seem to be genuinely interested in what people have experienced, here are my thoughts ...

                                      1. obviously don't voice your opinion directly to the judge/steward ... Go through the show manager.

                                      2. When I've experienced judges that seem to act inappropriately, I withdraw from their classes/divisions if I can. If I can't, I look at the class as an experience and don't care what the judge says. In addition, my trainer (and a good trainer) will absolutely not let me curse, swear, confront the judge or show officials, or display any kind of unsportsmanlike behavior. I did, once, and was dressed down back at the barn that I will never make that mistake again.

                                      3. If a show is run poorly or has unprofessional judges and stewards, don't go. Depending where you are, there are other options. Like someone said, protest with your wallet. I know I do.

                                      4. If you feel like there is an endemic issue, write in to the governing body.

                                      Lastly, I noticed earlier that you mentioned you think this is for A and AA shows. It probably isn't and you may have your ratings mixed up. In order of prestige/level .... unrated local Schooling shows, unrated regional Schooling shows, C, B, A, and AA then National and International shows. You said you are new to the Hunter ring so I didn't think you were likely to be at an A show.

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        the OP posted that WE were off our meds and then retracted the comment. no one said the OP was off meds- BWW YOU made that comment to US (the other posters). i just wanted to call you out on it since i found it utterly ridiculous

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          Originally posted by BWW View Post
                                          You read far too much into my post. Do not attack others if you don't want pushback. That's a life lesson for you. It doesn't take a big person to sit tucked away in their room posting like you do. And please, don't worry about us in the shows....we do just fine thank you.
                                          Hahahaaa... she didn't read too much into your post. It was there for the rest of us to read and sadly, is the oft-used reply of the less-than-tactful poster. It's really, really childish to try and play some ridiculous have/have not card.

                                          And then to continue with the "shut-in/get-a-life" argument. Oh my. Are you going to bring up Hitler next?

                                          Oh, and please don't take my post as a reprimand. I was just letting you know that your post was rude, unacceptable and out of line. It could also hurt the tender feelings of some of our younger posters. It really had to be done.
                                          Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
                                          Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

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