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USEF Response to NYT article...is it time for The Humble Initiative

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  • #41
    I have prescribed meds "on hand", but they are not in huge quantities. Only enough to get me through any possible holiday or weekend. Plus my vets know me and the horses that it would be aimed at. But that isn't the important part. What's important is that there are only enough drugs on hand to get through a weekend of possible, normal mishaps.

    Comment


    • #42
      Good morning to all.

      I work in conflict resolution (not an attorney) for a government agency. The problem of finding the best way for a low-status person (for lack of as better term) to safely notify the Powers That Be of actions that are unethical and/or against policy without incurring retribution is a constantly moving target. Would something like the Whistleblower's Protection Act be practicable for the USEF?

      Does the USEF have an inspector general type program or an ombudsman program?

      Back in my younger days, I was a working student/head groom at a nationally winning barn in that breed's equivalent of the A circuit during a similar type of reprehensible situation.

      I am second-generation mexican-american. My great-grandparents were migrant farmworkers. My BS degree is in the social sciences.

      I don't want this to come out wrong: If you really want to know what is happening at the big shows and in the big barns, take someone with you who speaks Spanish and go talk to the stable hands. They see everything and know exactly who is doing what to whom.

      Because the stable hands tend are sometimes here in the US without legal immigration papers, they are afraid to speak for fear of deportation.

      My experience was that the BNTs had their "illegals" or "Mexicans" do the actual doping/soreing/whatever, so that if it was ever exposed, then the BNT could publicly profess innocence and blame everything on the now-fired or deported "illegal."

      Just my two cents. Thank you all for sharing your expertise.
      Regards,
      Amber
      Last edited by californianinkansas; Jan. 1, 2013, 11:53 AM. Reason: edit punctuation
      PA Hi-Ly Visible [PA Hi-Noon (by Magnum Psyche) x Takara Padrona (by *Padron)]

      Proud member of the Snort and Blow Clique

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      • #43
        Here is the link to the State Veterinary Medical Associations with all the names of the executive directors and their email addresses.

        https://www.avma.org/advocacy/statea...paign=redirect

        Comment


        • #44
          Originally posted by mroades View Post
          Reed, you have a real job and are not a trainer, nor a hunter judge. If that is how you make a living it gets a bit more complicated.
          Then... this comes back to something that has come up on COTH since the AHSA/USEF transition days. Maybe we need more amateurs with day jobs holding key governance and hearing committee positions within USEF.
          If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

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          • #45
            I haven't been able to read and fully digest all the comments here, but the first step seems to be simple, as justathought put it. If you want to "play" in the USEF competitions, you agree to make full and complete disclosure about horse-related incidents when the USEF asks for it. If you choose not to, you are then suspended from all USEF competitions until you provide the information that has been requested.

            What blows my mind is that EM refuses to provide the information to the USEF, so the Federation just throws up its hands, says "oh well, we tried", and the REINSTATES her??!!!!

            So, make cooperation a requirement if you want to continue to run your business using competitions sanctioned and organized by the USEF. Otherwise, take your secretive butt to other federations and see if they will put up with you. As it stands now, the Federation has no teeth whatsoever, so long as you pretend to not hear their requests for information.

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            • #46
              Originally posted by poltroon View Post
              Then... this comes back to something that has come up on COTH since the AHSA/USEF transition days. Maybe we need more amateurs with day jobs holding key governance and hearing committee positions within USEF.
              Good point. The way things are now the foxes are in charge of the henhouse.
              "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
              Thread killer Extraordinaire

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by mroades View Post
                And this is one of the side effects of too much regulation; I for one believe that in most situations, I would rather have antibiotice or sedation on hand, than be in a situation in an emergency and its a holiday or AAEP week and not be able to properly handle something because I can't get a vet out. And it HAS HAPPENED (where there were no vets available)
                Ah, so it depends upon whose ox is being gored?
                "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

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                • #48
                  Originally posted by katarine View Post
                  http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/...-times-article

                  That's the link.

                  The Humble Rule would be a good one.
                  I named it that a long time ago.
                  The armchair saddler
                  Politically Pro-Cat

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Not at all Ghazzu, I just think that there are no absolutes, and while I am all for trying to advocate change, I think that there are always two edges to the blade
                    "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
                    carolprudm

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                    • #50
                      Originally posted by RAyers View Post
                      Forget that! I suggest somebody such as findeight along with mrhoades and others in this bb, step in with their own rule proposals. There are plenty of insanely intelligent and knowledgable people here with extensive backgrounds that surpass those of the USEF leaders in the pertinent areas.

                      It is time to get off our collective asses and fix this crap now. It is time to push the USHJA/USEF etc. and to NOT accept what is given. Yes, there are very good folks there who are very busy. Now is the time for the membership to pull some of the load.

                      I and others do/did this with the USEA/USEF and there have been some major changes based on fact driven rules to make the sport better.

                      Reed
                      Ain't it time to renew USEF memberships? I suggest those who will sign a petition to Long refusing to re-up until they see some evidence that the USEF is going to give their D&M fines some sting.

                      I won't rejoin the USEF this year anyway, but I'm telling you now that I won't *ever* do that until they sort this. There's just.no.point if the hunters are your competition of choice.
                      The armchair saddler
                      Politically Pro-Cat

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                      • #51
                        Originally posted by mvp View Post
                        Ain't it time to renew USEF memberships? I suggest those who will sign a petition to Long refusing to re-up until they see some evidence that the USEF is going to give their D&M fines some sting.

                        I won't rejoin the USEF this year anyway, but I'm telling you now that I won't *ever* do that until they sort this. There's just.no.point if the hunters are your competition of choice.

                        And I can't get hired to judge if I don't renew mine......can you see the rock and the hard place?
                        "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
                        carolprudm

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                        • #52
                          Originally posted by MistyBlue View Post
                          Actually...nailing EM to the wall seems to be at least shining light on just HOW bad the cokcroaches have gotten. If the USEF has pulled it's enabling head out of it's ignorant arse long enough to make public statements like admitting there was a screw up and they couldn't fix it due to their hands being tied...and that it MAY lead to policy changes...then I say a hearty thanks to the obnoxious, bombastic, self congratulating, litigation-happy EM for screwing up in SUCH a loud, grating and dumbass way. Apparently even the USEF had to respond.
                          Absolutely.

                          If EM got this problem out of the back room of the USEF and into the NYT, then she did all of us rank-in-file non-cheaters an enormous service. I'm grateful. Were I EM, none of this would go anywhere. I don't have enough money to piss off enough people and do that in a venue like Devon. My a-holery would go unnoticed and, if common, unaddressed by the USEF.
                          The armchair saddler
                          Politically Pro-Cat

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by findeight View Post
                            I also think some who have not been in a serious circuit environment may not be aware how nasty some folks can get when they feel you are threatening their livelyhood. Seen it everywhere from competitive local unrated circuits to QHs to Ayrabs and H/J. They can get vindictive, property can be vandalized and even horses put at risk (manes or tails cut, india ink dumped on a paint). They can also pressure show managemant not to hire anybody who speaks out, in any capacity. They can make sure a braider walks out to 2 flats and never gets hired again too. Whistle blowers don't fare well in any industry.
                            First, I absolutely respect and understand mroades' and your positions. I have been in positions of whistle blowing outside of the horse world and I put my jobs at risk so I do know.

                            Second, based on this statement, the industry has then tacitly accepted blackmail, extortion, fraud, theft, and many other criminal acts as the status-quo of doing business? Doesn't that even get you all at least a bit angry enough to even try anything?

                            While I agree that money can talk, not renewing a membership is not the best thing either. Change must come from WITHIN the membership. That is how diseases work. We can be a cancer for good in the USEF.

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by mroades View Post
                              Not at all Ghazzu, I just think that there are no absolutes, and while I am all for trying to advocate change, I think that there are always two edges to the blade
                              The existing prescription regulations far antedate any kerfluffles about show horses.
                              They're there for good reasons.
                              Unfortunately, way too many people think they're silly.
                              "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                              ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Are the USEF incapable of calling the police/Animal Welfare authorities ?

                                http://animalwelfarecouncil.com/about-awc/
                                Last edited by Equibrit; Jan. 1, 2013, 01:33 PM.
                                ... _. ._ .._. .._

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Yes it infuriates me, but throwing myself on the sword will only result in my guts being spilled, the hordes of mommies and daddies who only care about winning might slip in them for a moment, but most of them wouldnt even notice. When I tell a kid they can't show because they arent ready, I get fired or the kid leaves for someone who will tell them they can.
                                  I am not trying to sound so intractable, but I have been a trainer for 30 years, and have seen firsthand many, many times what happens when you stick your neck out. I did that in 2001 and have still not recovered from it.
                                  "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
                                  carolprudm

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by RAyers View Post
                                    Sorry, doesn't fly with me. I ain't wealthy and I still join the fight. If I can do it, then anybody can because I am not different than you all.
                                    But Reed, your paycheck doesn't come from the Hunter Industry, does it? You'd lose something were you to protest, but not your bread and butter.
                                    The armchair saddler
                                    Politically Pro-Cat

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by BestLegUp View Post
                                      I disagree with the call for more rules; that is the ubiquitous refrain of the irresponsible. Consider Mr. Long's explanation, which is perplexing if not untrue. The USEF does have the authority to discipline a member for "unethical," "dishonest," or "unsportsmanlike" acts that are prejudicial to the sport or Federation. See GR 702(1)(d), which reads in part:

                                      1. A violation is any act prejudicial to the best interests of the Federation, including but not limited to the following:
                                      d. Acting or inciting or permitting any other to act in a manner contrary to the rules of the Federation, or in a manner deemed improper, unethical, dishonest, unsportsmanlike or intemperate, or prejudicial to the best interests of the sport and the Federation.

                                      Killing her pony and fleeing the scene sound unethical and unsportsmanlike to me and have proven to be prejudicial to the sport. The failure of Ms. Mandarino to turn over documents sure sounds "dishonest."

                                      Her lack of cooperation does not stymie the USEF's ability to prove her guilt. Instead, her suppression of information requested by the governing body points to her guilt. Her failure to appear at her hearing to defend herself also permits an adverse inference to be taken in support of the allegations in the protest. The USEF, not a state criminal court, was perfectly free to conclude the allegations in the protest were correct and to punish Ms. Mandarino. The USEF certainly could have "deemed" her actions "improper" under GR702, given the circumstances and her lack of defense. The USEF was not handcuffed and is capable with current rules to police itself.

                                      The USEF should have followed their current rules and kicked her out for playing games and embarrassing the sport. Before calling for more rules, the "correct" contours of which no can seem to articulate, the USEF should do a better job of obeying and enforcing the current rules. Otherwise violations of the new Humble Rule will be equally ignored.
                                      I disagree.

                                      If you read the entire NYT/Humble thread, Mandarino believes she was set up and harassed and that her opponents used the USEF process unfairly.

                                      So for the sake of the argument, let's assume she is correct. Now let's assume that someone less aggressive and unsavory than Mandarino also has enemies who would like to get the USEF to do some dirty work for them.

                                      Are you sure you'd like to give the USEF carte blanche to excommunicate people for something undefinable as "improper" or "unsportsmanlike" conduct? If Mandarino, or our more favorable person being persecuted left a bad taste in the USEF's mouth because of a *number of things* he/she did wrong, but not one of them technically illegal, there's a problem. It would seem here that the person committed an illegal act merely because they reached some threshold "things done to piss off the USEF."
                                      The armchair saddler
                                      Politically Pro-Cat

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by mvp View Post
                                        But Reed, your paycheck doesn't come from the Hunter Industry, does it? You'd lose something were you to protest, but not your bread and butter.
                                        No, I did that in another job and I am still trying to recover. Before that, I did it and became untouchable in the corporation. That is my point. Sometimes you have to be willing to take the bullet to stand up to your own values. And, guess what, if lots of folks stand up, then the horse shows have no choice.

                                        It looks to me that everyone has given the horse show managers all the power and the USEF, who is SUPPOSED to be the GOVERNING body, is really a toothless entity other than against low-level and no-name riders/trainers.

                                        Why aren't trainers here on COTH standing up? Why can't they push things? Why not amateurs on the inside (and I know there are)? Working as a TEAM would reduce the potential fall-out. But it will take a person or two, dedicated to lead the team.

                                        I don't ride the hunters/jumpers anymore so my standing up has no effect. But I do focus on eventing and will put my efforts into making it a great sport, even if the FEI/IOC is destroying it.

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by mvp View Post
                                          But Reed, your paycheck doesn't come from the Hunter Industry, does it? You'd lose something were you to protest, but not your bread and butter.
                                          No; but he already stated that he has had experience within *his* professional realm of outing misconduct, and at personal risk.

                                          So he's not asking anyone to do something he's unwilling to do.
                                          "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                                          ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

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