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New York Times article - USEF and Humble

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  • #81
    Originally posted by War Admiral View Post
    Well, yeah, but let's take an informal poll here: hands up, how many of you have ever actually SEEN a USEF drug tester alive and in person, let alone had a horse tested? How many have had a horse tested more than once?
    I have. I've only been pulled for a test once myself, this summer (In fact, two of the four horses we had with us got tested at that show). I've seen barnmates' horses tested on many occasions going back to showing as a junior.

    Comment


    • #82
      Interesting article....and just before the winter circuit. Wonder if this will change her show plans in Ocala?

      Comment


      • #83
        I've been tested and horse was clean. The tester vet, and accompanying vet tech watched our class, and we got a good ribbon. He introduced himself as I was exiting the ring and accompanied us back to the barn. No drama and he was very nice.

        Several people at my barn have been tested more than once. Always clean.

        I always say hi to the vet when I see him at shows. He's very nice.
        It's 2017. Do you know where your old horse is?

        www.streamhorsetv.com -- website with horse show livestream listings and links.

        Comment


        • #84
          Thank You for sharing this article

          Thank you for sharing this article ~
          Zu Zu Bailey " IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE ! "

          Comment


          • #85
            Originally posted by Molly99 View Post
            I really wish the Drug Forum from the USHJA convention was available online. It was a very informative discussion. I think most of you would be surprised at the LOW number of "positive" tests that the USEF finds. They test over 10,000 horses a year. Of that the positive tests were (I believe) less than 150 and many of those were for simple errors on when they would return to showing. Not that they were showing on banned substances.
            Assuming that it is correct that they currently test 10,000+ horses a year....

            Originally posted by SaturdayNightLive View Post
            Random thought, but why don't we just drug test everything that pins? You get a ribbon, you get escorted to a drug test.... The cost might be prohibitive, but I'm willing to pay a little more to ensure that I'm getting a level playing field.
            I think you'd be paying a *LOT* more if the number of drug tests suddenly included all ribbon winners. The drug fee costs would skyrocket, and one of the big problems we already have is that showing is too expensive for many, many people. Plus as someone else said, it might be hard to find enough veterinary staff willing to do all that testing day after day.

            I also think the random nature of the testing program is important to protect ALL the horses at the show. Otherwise, you could have trainers who know their less-than-stellar riders are unlikely to get ribbons, and they might feel free to use anything they wanted to on those poor horses, secure in the knowledge the non-winning horses will not be tested.

            Comment


            • #86
              I have not read the whole thread, so this may be duplicative -- but this is the USEF's letter in response to the NY Times article.

              It really upsets me that the USEF is making it out to sound like they will get right on this horrible drugging thing -- Like no one has brought it to their attention before now. They are boasting that a task force WILL be meeting in Feb. of 2013.

              Nothing about their feeble and ineffective attempts to put a band aid on a huge, festering wound that is splitting the horse world into 2 camps: "druggies" and "not a druggie"

              http://www.usefnetwork.com/news/9441..._york_tim.aspx
              "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism"

              Charles Krauthammer speaking about Trump

              Comment


              • #87
                Originally posted by War Admiral View Post
                Well, yeah, but let's take an informal poll here: hands up, how many of you have ever actually SEEN a USEF drug tester alive and in person, let alone had a horse tested? How many have had a horse tested more than once?

                I have only ever SEEN a USEF drug tester ONE time at ONE show. I'm 54, been riding/showing since age 6. (And remember, I'm multi-disciplinary, so I "get around" a LOT: breed shows, carriage driving shows, etc. as well as H/J.) So if you do the math, that's pretty close to 50 YEARS of USEF shows at which I never saw a tester and could, if so inclined, have cranked whatever I wanted into horsie
                I find that pretty hard to believe. I've seen countless testers, had my own horse tested six times that I can think of offhand. Those are just the times that stood out, because of location, or difficulty of getting sample,
                and one memorably moronic tester. If I had to estimate I personally probably had a horse tested twice a year. But to count the number of times something from the barn or in the aisle was tested in the 25 years or so I remember? Impossible. And I'd have to digress into stories about the tester who tried to test the wrong horse, the one that regaled us with her policy of testing the "fast" ones, and the one we could only assume had a crush on the trainer, given that she tested five in one week (to be fair, we had a lot of hack winners, and they always love to test them since they're usually done showing and they're the first out the cleared ingate and easy to nab). I guess it does depend though. You won't find many testers picking from divisions that don't jog, so if you weren't watching the ingate during the jog or hack or looking closely at the people heading for the barn with the horses you might not notice. I seriously can't imagine you went to that many shows where they weren't there.

                Comment


                • #88
                  I've had my horse personally tested twice, once after after winning a big Junior Jumper classic. Was never a problem for our barn as we properly trained our horses instead of using a needle.

                  I love how when the mention of drugging at the trials came up, they actually showed footage of Urico. Am I correct in remembering that he was the horse who tested positive for cocaine?
                  Fils Du Reverdy (Revy)- 1993 Selle Francais Gelding
                  My equine soulmate
                  Mischief Managed (Tully)- JC Priceless Jewel 2002 TB Gelding

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    Originally posted by War Admiral View Post
                    Well, yeah, but let's take an informal poll here: hands up, how many of you have ever actually SEEN a USEF drug tester alive and in person, let alone had a horse tested? How many have had a horse tested more than once?
                    I see them with some frequency.
                    Have had two horses tested.
                    Really, they don't come in with a brass band.
                    Oftentimes, they're not even noticed.
                    Just because *you* didn't see them doesn't mean they weren't there.
                    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      I had one randomly tested a few years ago. We had a mediocre day and he was a fairly plain horse - plain bay, not that fancy, and not hot or dull. Just very average and indiscriminate. He was SMART though and made the tester wait over two hours for him to pee...all for a negative drug test.

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        I am glad this article came out because it has finally shed some light on this situation.

                        1. I think that unless 100% of the horses at the shows are drug tested, we will never know how many are testing positive for something. I do think that we should be be testing more horses.

                        2. I do think that there should be rules that are actually enforced. Why on earth do we have rules if we never use them? It makes showing meaningless if you don't feel like you know your competing against fair people.

                        3. I think that it is very honorable that Ms. Williams would stick up for the Pony and the girl. A lot of people in the horse industry are AFRAID of reporting people because you never know what they might do to get revenge. I know for a fact in my area, if you reported someone for drugging or abuse your horse would be hurt or neglected. I have heard anything from giving your horse cocaine to basically hitting them with a baseball bat. I think a lot of us are forgetting how hard it is to penalize these people without them retaliating against us.

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          Originally posted by MorganJumper848 View Post
                          I am glad this article came out because it has finally shed some light on this situation.

                          1. I think that unless 100% of the horses at the shows are drug tested, we will never know how many are testing positive for something. I do think that we should be be testing more horses.

                          2. I do think that there should be rules that are actually enforced. Why on earth do we have rules if we never use them? It makes showing meaningless if you don't feel like you know your competing against fair people.

                          3. I think that it is very honorable that Ms. Williams would stick up for the Pony and the girl. A lot of people in the horse industry are AFRAID of reporting people because you never know what they might do to get revenge. I know for a fact in my area, if you reported someone for drugging or abuse your horse would be hurt or neglected. I have heard anything from giving your horse cocaine to basically hitting them with a baseball bat. I think a lot of us are forgetting how hard it is to penalize these people without them retaliating against us.
                          All good ideas -- BUT - and I raised this before - what difference does testing make if the substances that are being used by many are not testable OR are allowed for purposes other than calming. We ARE TRULY KIDDING ourselves if e think that testing is the SOLE solution as opposed to changing judging, incentives etc. And -- I am not sure why no one commenting here has addressed this issue.

                          For example -- dex is used to calm horses -- everyone knows - so why not regulate dex. Its impractical to require that vets administer every shot but much less impractical to require that substances such as dex and magnesium and the like be administered only by vets

                          Comment


                          • #93
                            This whole mess makes me very grateful that I gave up showing a while ago - mostly because the time and money required to do it at the level I would want to are just not realistic for a young single professional without making a lot of other sacrifices, which I opted not to do. The USEF's handling of this situation, as well as their absolutely pathetic response, really make us all look like a bunch of morons, in my opinion. My first thought when I read that article was the questions I was going to get from my non-horsey friends - many of whom still remember the whole insurance scam mess. While I am glad that this problem is finally getting the attention it deserves, I'm embarrassed that it is as a result of media attention from outside our industry.

                            And in regards to vets being required to give IV injections at shows - I don't know what the right answer is, but I will say that being able to hit a vein does not mean you are properly skilled in administering IV injections, or that you would know how to handle an injection gone wrong. I used to give IV injections, I could in an emergency, and I've had many trainers that gave them without a second thought - but I choose not to give them anymore because I don't think I do it often enough to stay in practice, and because I am more comfortable trusting my vet with my beloved horse's veins. Incidentally, he is only getting polyglycan shots and the like - he is one of those that is too exuberant for the hunter ring without the drugs and excessive lunging I suspect his former owners gave him (he has the arthritis to show for it). I am known at my barn for bursting into giggles when he is having a particularly good day and puts his head down or throws in a little hop - I hate that so many kids on automaton ponies are being denied the same experience.

                            Comment


                            • #94
                              Originally posted by juststartingout View Post
                              All good ideas -- BUT - and I raised this before - what difference does testing make if the substances that are being used by many are not testable OR are allowed for purposes other than calming. We ARE TRULY KIDDING ourselves if e think that testing is the SOLE solution as opposed to changing judging, incentives etc. And -- I am not sure why no one commenting here has addressed this issue.

                              For example -- dex is used to calm horses -- everyone knows - so why not regulate dex. Its impractical to require that vets administer every shot but much less impractical to require that substances such as dex and magnesium and the like be administered only by vets
                              I completely agree with you that it should be required for dex and magnesium to be ONLY administered by a vet. I am sorry to people who want to use it but they are dangerous drugs and should only be used if completely necessary!

                              I think that we need to change this judging standard but how do you throw out the bad without the good? Some of these people have agendas and its very hard to pick them all out. Its just like saying, "Someone shouldn't be penalized in the hunters for not using a standing martingale." Some judges believe that it is a traditional piece of tack so they score you lower. Well, its not fair because you shouldn't have to use one but the judges can do whatever they want. Maybe a judge should be required to have a score sheet like in dressage and describe at every jump what is going on and why they got that score? I do think that would help.

                              Comment


                              • #95
                                Originally posted by juststartingout View Post
                                For example -- dex is used to calm horses -- everyone knows - so why not regulate dex. Its impractical to require that vets administer every shot but much less impractical to require that substances such as dex and magnesium and the like be administered only by vets
                                There are vets who will do just that.

                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  You can penalize to the hilt, but the larger issue no one has brought up, is the appalling lack of horsemanship skills by the so called trainers themselves. Hardly any of these horses are started with any real knowledge and horse handling skills. They have no idea how to really get a horse well adjusted and controllable. Most don't even really know how a horse thinks. How can we expect them to teach young people good horse handling skills, when the trainers themselves have none. Take away the drugs, and these people are lost, and haven't a clue. The entire environment,living conditions, and the hot house potted plant method of housing and stabling contributes to the problem also. I see it in the Dressage world as well. It is an artificial world created by artificial trainers. Unfortunately, the horses are very real. In my opinion.

                                  Comment


                                  • #97
                                    Originally posted by MorganJumper848 View Post
                                    ....Maybe a judge should be required to have a score sheet like in dressage and describe at every jump what is going on and why they got that score? I do think that would help.
                                    Not to change the subject -- but wouldn't it be wonderful for riders AND trainers to get valuable feedback and learning. Having been a scribe for a dressage judge - its not that hard and the riders and trainers truly appreciate the value of the comments.

                                    Comment


                                    • #98
                                      Originally posted by MorganJumper848 View Post
                                      ....Maybe a judge should be required to have a score sheet like in dressage and describe at every jump what is going on and why they got that score? I do think that would help.
                                      Not to change the subject -- but wouldn't it be wonderful for riders AND trainers to get valuable feedback and learning. Having been a scribe for a dressage judge - its not that hard and the riders and trainers truly appreciate the value of the comments.

                                      Comment


                                      • #99
                                        Originally posted by MorganJumper848 View Post
                                        I completely agree with you that it should be required for dex and magnesium to be ONLY administered by a vet. I am sorry to people who want to use it but they are dangerous drugs and should only be used if completely necessary!

                                        I think that we need to change this judging standard but how do you throw out the bad without the good? Some of these people have agendas and its very hard to pick them all out. Its just like saying, "Someone shouldn't be penalized in the hunters for not using a standing martingale." Some judges believe that it is a traditional piece of tack so they score you lower. Well, its not fair because you shouldn't have to use one but the judges can do whatever they want. Maybe a judge should be required to have a score sheet like in dressage and describe at every jump what is going on and why they got that score? I do think that would help.
                                        WHO gives the shot is less germane than WHY the medication was given...
                                        The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by horsehand View Post
                                          You can penalize to the hilt, but the larger issue no one has brought up, is the appalling lack of horsemanship skills by the so called trainers themselves. Hardly any of these horses are started with any real knowledge and horse handling skills. They have no idea how to really get a horse well adjusted and controllable. Most don't even really know how a horse thinks. How can we expect them to teach young people good horse handling skills, when the trainers themselves have none. Take away the drugs, and these people are lost, and haven't a clue. The entire environment,living conditions, and the hot house potted plant method of housing and stabling contributes to the problem also. I see it in the Dressage world as well. It is an artificial world created by artificial trainers. Unfortunately, the horses are very real. In my opinion.
                                          The amount of times I have heard the excuse for using certain tack, drugs, and abusive training methods is, "Because it is easier." I am so sick of people just doing unethical things because it is easier. We see it in every horse world. Dressage, Eventing, Reining, and Driving. No we do not need god awful bits that are wire, we don't need standing martingales just to put a horses head down instead of training them, we don't need to lunge them for hours to make them exhausted, we don't need to make them zombies. Its just wrong. It's almost like we keep getting dumbed down. I went to a dressage show this last summer and so many people lunged there horse for 1 1/2 hours with side reins at 7am. Then rode at 8am for 1 hour. Then lunged at noon again for 1 1/2 hours and then rode again at 3pm. Its just insane and wrong.

                                          Comment

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