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New York Times article - USEF and Humble

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  • Originally posted by findeight View Post
    You can also Google if you have the patience. If you do have a basic time frame, you can go back in USEF records and find details of hearing findings and penalties. But there is NO index, you have to know when the USEF hearing was held. No idea about now that it's online but used to take 3 to 4 months between the hearing and the publication in the back of the magazine.
    In an effort to suggest contributions to a solution:

    Yes, the USEF ought to choose the "make it possible/easy to find D&M rules infringers" strategy. If they changed nothing else, this bit alone would help it appear to stand by it's mission.

    This might be a bone thrown to the Powers That Be who currently exploit the light punishments imposed. They can bet on clients not caring or bothering to do their research. IMO, this is what trainers do now. But they can know, too, that the GOB supports the smarter potential client who wants that information. Since no one knows how much any of we HOs wants or seeks out that information currently, it might work as a proposal that makes its supporters look like advocates of clean sport without actually risking anything, should they believe their clients don't know/care about the drugging they do.

    It's a win for the clean; it's a win for the dirty. You need both.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


    • Originally posted by findeight View Post
      On the number of top level Hunters and their longevity? I honestly don't think there are that many horses who can really get to the top level and stay there. Not really anything nefarious in that. Or in a horse not doing as well in a new home, there is a possibility it's that actual riding/training ability thing and not just the drugs wearing off as so many assume. Not EVERYbody is corrupt.

      Remember the top dawgs get picked off by Ammies and Juniors to dwell in 3'6" land...or even 3' land.
      I think showing in the A/Os or the Juniors would still qualify a hunter as showing at an upper level of their discipline. Lyle was brought up as an example of such a horse. It does seem like Grand Prix jumpers often have longer careers than the top hunters and they are doing something way more physically taxing.


      • Add me to the list who thinks that the USEF should keep drug infraction/rule infraction records in a manner that is searchable and easy to find. MyssMyst is correct, right now there is no good way to find out the details about any particular trainer unless you are already "in the loop" and know people you can quietly ask for recommendations and information, unless the trainer has been blatant in their behavior.

        I also think that the USEF could find a way to help educate owners and riders about the issue. As an owner or rider, you have the right to ask your trainer EXACTLY what your horse or the horse you are riding is being given. And I mean exactly, not "something to relax his muscles after the long trailer ride, a special nutritional supplement, and some vitamins and minerals." Nutritional supplements and vitamins and minerals" sounds so innocuous, but that could encompass a wide variety of substances including GABA and magnesium. Owners and riders need to know that.


        • I think the reason the GP horses may have a longer career is, at least, two fold. One is their pre show exercise it based in dressage/warm up/loosen up not exercise until exhausted. The goal with a high level jumper is rideability and relaxation, not fatique.
          At most shows they jump three classes, maximum - not the usual hunter fare of a warm up and double division. The exception being Olympic and World Games where they may jump several more rounds.
          Not to appear arrogant but at the GP level there is generally a higher skill level in terms of the rider which in turn is easier on the horse.
          This is not to say that those who jump the GP are squeaky clean either.
          I wish there were an easy answer. I'm afraid returning to the "run and jump" style of yore might send many riders to the tennis court.
          Last edited by Ruby G. Weber; Jan. 4, 2013, 09:25 PM.


          • I'd like to propose not just the D&M violations be made available in an easier to use format, I want to see ALL administrative actions and penalties.

            Really, if I am looking to use a trainer for my 12 year old DD who, turns out, stormed into the judges booth and threw a chair at them? And several years earlier took a swing at a steward? Might influence my decision, ya think?

            Or maybe I am looking to buy a 6 year old Green Hunter and find out the seller has multiple penalties over the last 10 years for misrepresentation?

            Or, my favorite, that smooth talking trainer trying to take my horse on the circuit has a stack of violations and has been kicked out for several years. Which is why nobody seems to know him now that he is back and on the opposite coast from where he was previously.

            On the other hand, if somebody has a single D&M violation for a legal substance (in proper amounts and time frame) with no further occurances? Probably keep them in consideration. Mistakes do happen and timing can be screwed up.

            All of this can be a total surprise to both newbies to our sport and even veterans who just were not aware. All it would take is a software modification to let USEF and USHJA members actually do the research USEF and USHJA suggest when selecting a horse professional. Research of records long made public.
            When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

            The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.


            • Originally posted by Lord Helpus View Post

              Talk about drugs. Put up posters in the stabling area. Get the riders on the side of riding a clean horse. [Try to] run a campaign in which owners/riders sign a pledge to only own/ride drug free horses.
              The marketer in me can see an entire scare campaign:
              - A kid in jods holding the reins of a dropped pony with the trainer standing dumbfounded, needle in hand, ribbons in back pocket.
              - An ammie's splayed out body in the dirt after the horse dropped mid-jump with others waving their ribbons by the in-gate.
              - USEF drug testers slapping trainers on the wrist, post-positive test (wait, that one might not work)
              - Of course, once the campaign has nearly run its course, the last images would show a severely broken down horse in a stall with some ridiculously low number of candles in a birthday cake, his ribbon quilt displayed behind him...

              Yeah, that'd be a fun campaign.
              "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford


              • While I'm not saying they deserve any less of our frustrations, it must be remembered that USHJA & USEF are not one and the same. USEF suspended SS, USHJA put him on the magazine's cover. The oversight is not as egregious as it initially sounds, nor is it particularly excusable.

                USHJA is our tool to influence USEF. And while I know it's not perfect, there are several committee members that recognize these problems and are working to fix them. I don't know what kind of D&M authority we could wrestle from USEF but it looks as though perhaps we should try and gain some. Maybe USHJA can slap further fines & penalties on the offenders so USEF doesn't have to deal with rewriting the rules for our special circumstances, but USEF would have to agree to recognize the bans.

                In re: GP horses mysteriously going strong in their late teens while the 13 y.o. 3' hunter is practically shunned from the show ring: I recently presented several seminars at EAP Finals to the Finalists of the USHJA Horsemanship Quiz Challenge, who were also in attendance. My talk focused on exactly this subject - responsibility for the horse's welfare beyond the prime show years of 8-12, and why, perhaps, hunters don't hold up as long. We discussed what the judges are looking for and how that affects "prep". We discussed alternatives to LTDing, and we talked about being proactive in getting your horse ready to show; ie, not just showing up and riding your class. We talked about the breeders, starters & trainers that worked hard to get the horse to show age, and the generous people that will eventually take the retired show horse on.

                My aim was to impress upon these kids that the way they manage their horse now is key to a safe future once it ages. The longer the horse is sound and useful, the more likely it will have a safe place in society. And what it endures during those "prime show years" greatly impacts its long term soundness.

                Much to my surprise, though I had kids from 2'6" hunters to 1.40m jumpers, I don't think I had one "hunter princess" that only showed up and rode. They all managed their own horses at the shows and they were all able to discuss their horse's quirks and how they went about preparing them. Given that this is a non-riding opportunity from USHJA, making it one of the more affordable programs to pursue, I hypothesize that we didn't have the upper-echelons of the A Circuit in attendance, where it has apparently become mandatory your horse resemble a robot. But nonetheless, it was inspiring to see these kids give the discussion a great deal of thought, and then get excited about new ideas to get their horse's brains ready to show without running their legs off... or worse.

                I have previously suggested a full-blown Clean Sport promotion campaign... it didn't get much wind back then, but the eagerness of these young kids to learn has really inspired me to believe that if we act now there might be a chance to save the next generation of horsemen.
                EHJ | FB | #140 | watch | #insta


                • I did not mean it was fun to watch the fate of the horse or buyer but the whole process, as it is very common repeat practice. We have all made tons of mistakes and ignore the signals. Many buyers come to WEF to buy the winners and they go home to find a different horse. It is not always the training as someone else suggested.


                  • Originally posted by CBoylen View Post
                    Very. Especially for an important show like Devon. Most people keep a regular adequan schedule and use legend show-by-show, but for a show like that you would adjust your adequan schedule if necessary to get the peak effect. And some of those that don't usually double their legend for regular shows do so for Devon.
                    And no one thinks that this might be a problem?

                    Gah - I'm only on page 26!
                    Lowly Farm Hand with Delusions of Barn Biddieom.
                    Witherun Farm


                    • Could the USEF ban as doping and not therapeutic any off label use of a drug? They won't, but would that be feasible? One would have to either pre-file a medication use statement (per FEI) or show a pre-existing vet diagnosis for any substance found in testing. This would mean "guilty until proven innocent."
                      "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                      Thread killer Extraordinaire


                      • Originally posted by Ambitious Kate View Post
                        I know I am not the only one who would like an explaination from the mods as to why a poster is allowed to continue posting lawsuit threats to other posters on this board. She's been banned before. Why is she allowed to threaten people on this board in subsequent usernames?

                        While she is, confusingly, allowed to post, frankly, I think EM should keep right on digging herself into a pit, rather than heed other's advice to stop digging and posting, not only because watching her self destruct is just so highly entertaining, but that she deserves everything she heaps upon herself. I think the more of a spectacle she creates, the more attention will come to the matter, and the more USEF will be (should be, will have to be)embarrased to have not held her responsible for her behaviour and what happened. I think if her acting out publicly makes the rest of the horse world insist USEF be held accountable for their part in the mess of drugging and injecting and using inappropriate meds during competition, then EM digging herself into a hole plays an important part in that, and should be encouraged to post online and lie as much as possible.
                        Might have something to do with the rumors about a lawsuit against COTH? Letting her post here is giving her enough rope to hang herself with.
                        Lowly Farm Hand with Delusions of Barn Biddieom.
                        Witherun Farm


                        • Originally posted by Ruby G. Weber View Post
                          I think one reason the GP horses may have a longer career is, at least, two fold. One is their pre show exercise it based in dressage/warm up/loosen up not exercise until exhausted. The goal with a high level jumper is rideability and relaxation, not fatique.
                          At most shows they jump three classes, maximum - not the usual hunter fare of a warm up and double division. The exception being Olympic and World Games where they may jump several more rounds.
                          Not to appear arrogant but at the GP level there is generally a higher skill level in terms of the rider which in turn is easier on the horse.
                          This is not to say that those who jump the GP are squeaky clean either.
                          I wish there were an easy answer. I'm afraid returning to the "run and jump" style of yore might send many riders to the tennis court.
                          Spot on Ruby W - spot ON. Spending years at shows or IN shows, the warm up routine for jumpers a WHOLE lot different that the warm up routine of most hunters - top level jumpers (oh, let's start with A/O jumpers) - out getting flatted - lots of dressage work, perhaps even a dressage RIDER doing to pre-work. Flex, shorten, lengthen, stretch then repeat, transitions, repeat. HUNTER warm ups? Rare pro or junior out early actually riding - if so, then lots of just trot trot trot - more likley? - able stable or not so able stable hand out lunging lunging lunging lunging - or, as we all are discussing - drugging drugging drugging. Oh the tales braiders could tell of those late night visits for a stick or two. In this case and in others, the sticks rather prominently in the daytime.
                          And agree with the number of classes and also, the slow ramp up to top level GP horse - they are mostly in their tweens - now, they are jumping 1.60 but still -
                          "Her life was okay. Sometimes she wished she were sleeping with the right man instead of with her dog, but she never felt she was sleeping with the wrong dog."



                          • Someone asked for an easier way to examine whether someone has been sanctioned/censured/fined/penalized/whatever word is appropriate.

                            I've been compiling a list of Hearing Committee Rulings dating back for the past 5 years. I'll start posting them here.

                            The people whose names are listed below are listed in the (related) Hearing Committee Ruling for that month. They may be sanctioned due to their own actions (e.g. trainer with D&M violations, exhibitor failure to pay fees, etc) or due to their ownership of a horse involved in a violation (e.g. they as owner have to repay winnings, for example). Or they may have consented to a plea agreement with USEF.

                            February 2008
                            TWIN LAKES FARM, INC.
                            CALVIN MCDONALD
                            DANIEL DEUSSER
                            HEATHER HARGETT A/K/A HEATHER WILLIAMS
                            CLASSIC COMPANY, LTD.
                            LINDA SAUTTER
                            ANDRES RODRIGUEZ

                            March 2008
                            KIMBERLY BRUNSON
                            ELLEN SKRAK
                            TRUDY GLEFKE
                            JONATHAN SORESI

                            April 2008 and May 2008 (these got merged somehow on my spreadsheet – sorry; you can find people in one)
                            CARLY LAURIELLO
                            STACY NICHOLS
                            DORETTA UMNUHS
                            PATTI FELKER-BREINER
                            MICHAEL MELLER
                            JILL BROWN
                            SANDY SKAFGAARD
                            BENJAMIN ROSICHAN
                            JANE SMYLIE and DAVID ALLEMBY
                            CYNTHIA BRICKLEY
                            MICHAEL D. CINTAS
                            CHRISTOPHER J. VERKLEEREN
                            CARYL SPECTOR
                            THOMAS C. HERN, JR.
                            TAMMY HAWKEY
                            KENNY LAYMON
                            LIONIEL FERREIRA
                            MELISSA MOORE
                            THOMAS C. HERN, JR.
                            ANNIE MAGILL
                            KARA TEDESCHI
                            MARY BETH MCGEE
                            JAMES NORTH
                            NICOLE HARRINGTON
                            ASHLEY COLONEL
                            MANUELA REYNOLDS

                            June 2008
                            EVA LOPEZ
                            CHRISTA CARSON
                            SARA KELLER
                            ELIZABETH WALTMAN
                            PAUL TURNER
                            DAN FLOWERS
                            WENDY KLAZENGA
                            KEVIN LENEHAN
                            DONIDA FARM
                            BARBARA PETTI
                            GEORGE DAVENPORT
                            EVA MIRIAM LONGO
                            JIM SPURRIER
                            KIMBERLY LITTRELL
                            SUSAN KOUSSOURIS
                            LINDA COYLE
                            BILL AND NANCY BECKER
                            CARLOS ALBERTO SIERRA
                            SHELLEY BULLARD
                            ROBIN HARICK

                            July/August 2008

                            HUMBERTO REYES
                            NORTHEAST REGIONAL HORSE SHOWS, LLC
                            MICHELE BREMER
                            JEAN AND BRUCE BECKMAN
                            JANET ROSE
                            JOHN MONETTI
                            CHARLES MCDANIEL
                            OX RIDGE CHARITY HORSE SHOW MANAGEMENT
                            MARILYN LITTLE
                            RAYLYN FARM
                            HEATHER MAYFIELD
                            OHIO EXPOSITIONS COMISSION

                            September 2008
                            WILLIAM CLARK
                            LESLIE STEELE
                            BRITTANY LUNNEY
                            LAURA REED
                            WENDY WERGELES
                            KATHERINE DESANTIS
                            CORNERSTONE FARM
                            STEVEN JENKINS
                            ROBERT DEVORE
                            LAURA WOOD
                            SOPHIE KOCH

                            October 2008
                            DEBORAH DAVIES
                            JOHN WHITE
                            SANDRA SARAN
                            K-LYN STABLE
                            LISA JO WHITE
                            STREETT MOORE
                            AMY NICHOLS
                            GAY (GARY) PETERSON
                            JOLEE HILLER
                            MANDY LOCKETT
                            LAURA BAKER
                            LAUREN SPARAGA
                            STEVEN TURILLI
                            LESLEY COX
                            LAURINE BARRIERA
                            HILLARY WATKINS
                            CAPITAL CHALLENGE PARNTERSHIP
                            LAURIE STATAM
                            JOCELYN HAMMAN
                            HILARY MENDEGUIA
                            OAKLEIGH, INC.
                            SWAN LAKE STABLES INC.
                            CAROLYN HOCK

                            NOVEMBER 2008
                            GEORGE SHAWN AGUEL
                            AMELIE PERRIER
                            KARL BEYER
                            THE GALLOPING FIELD
                            GABRIELLE MCGEE

                            DECEMBER 2008/JANUARY 2009
                            WILLIAM COONEY
                            ANNE SPEISER
                            JEANINE CASH ZUCKERMAN
                            DOLORES SWANN
                            DAWN DORRANCE
                            CAROL COWAN
                            TONY DIAMOND
                            ASHLEY BINA

                            FEBRUARY/MARCH 2009
                            LOUISE SERIO
                            BRYAN BALDWIN
                            GONZALO TOMAYO
                            HEATHER DRUMMOND
                            CHRISTOPHER KERR
                            BOBBIE KERR
                            ANGELA LAWRENCE
                            LISA ZARZECZNY
                            JAMES TUCKER
                            JENNIFER LE ROY
                            DAVID OLIYNYK
                            OLGA WALKER
                            GINA GATES
                            LINDSAY ANN MOSS
                            CARRIE SORTOR
                            ANDREA SCOTT-KNIGHT
                            SHARON EDWARDS
                            DORI OSBORNE
                            NORTHEAST REGIONAL HORSE SHOWS, LTD.
                            KRISTINE STACK
                            UPHA CHAPTER V
                            MATHEW AND TANYA BURKE
                            STACY BAILEY
                            FRANK KUZMIN
                            LOYD “BUCKY” BRANNON
                            JAN TOPS
                            WILLIAM POSTEL
                            RENEE BIERLY
                            HUNTER FARMS
                            CRICKET CLARK
                            JOE THORPE
                            LAURA ROBERTSON
                            LAUREL RIDGE SPORT HORSES LLC
                            CARLA JOHNSON
                            DONALD STEWART JR.
                            GABBY SLOME
                            JACK BENSON
                            DIANE SAMBOLA
                            SCOTT NUNNALLY

                            APRIL 2009
                            LIZ (ELIZABETH) SCHUMANN
                            JAMES GENTLEMAN
                            PATO MUENTE
                            AGUSTIN ROSALES
                            BREE CHANDLER
                            JANE SMYLIE
                            MICHELE PESTL

                            MAY 2009
                            RACHE ROCK ROBINSON
                            JUSTIN RESNIK
                            HORSE ON COURSE EQUESTRIAN CENTER INC.
                            LANCE WILLIAMSON
                            SANDRA WOLF
                            CARYN EAREHART
                            MARYANN MEINERS
                            KEVIN PETITGOUT
                            DIANNA STANGER
                            WOLF POINT RANCH, LLC.
                            JEAN BUDDIN

                            JUNE 2009
                            MARK LANG
                            SIMONE KESSLER
                            ERIKA NESLER
                            CARLY ARBITMAN
                            AMANDA SZADYR
                            KARYN SZADYR
                            HEATHER HARDMAN
                            SHERILYN NASSER
                            AMELIA NASSER
                            SUMMERLYN NASSER
                            CHARLES MCCALLISTER
                            JAYNE TRAINOR AND HORSIN’ TOGS, LLC
                            GUY KAPLIN
                            LAURIE ALLINGER
                            DAVID GERSH
                            KIM LAND
                            PINETREE PONIES
                            BOB (ROBERT) PHILLIPS
                            LOUIS NOVAK
                            VIRGINIA HORSE CENTER

                            JULY/AUGUST 2009
                            DAVID BILGRIEN
                            WENDY ARNDT-HODGES & EQUESTRIAN CENTER
                            JACK BENSON
                            J. MICHAEL KIERKEGAARD

                            SEPTEMBER 2009
                            CAROL BISHOP
                            LARRY (DAVID) GLEFKE
                            BENJAMIN WATSON
                            KIRSTEN PRIEBE
                            PAUL KEENAN
                            CHRISTINE BRUCE
                            ROBERT LE DONNE
                            MARGARET PASCALE
                            LUCAS KLINE
                            LAUREN SMITH
                            DALE BROWN
                            DANA CALLAWAY

                            OCTOBER 2009
                            MICHAELLE GARDEN

                            NOVEMBER 2009
                            DOROTHY MAXFIELD
                            EMER COYNE
                            HILLARY WATKINS
                            MIGUEL NOY

                            DECEMBER 2009/JANUARY 2010
                            WENDI SCHNITTJER
                            MICHAEL NEWMAN
                            KAREN NEWMAN
                            AUBREY HILL FARM
                            JEAN KINSELLA
                            MELANIE GARDY
                            KATHERINE DESANTIS
                            PAMELA OTIS
                            JESSICA SMITH
                            HEATHER MAYFIELD
                            NORMAN DELLO JOIO

                            FEBRUARY/MARCH 2010
                            RUSSELL LEE
                            RODNEY ECKENRODE
                            JOHN RYAN
                            LISA POWELL
                            BRIAN WISK
                            KENNETH AND SUSAN KNIPE
                            MONTELEONE PARTNERSHIP
                            W. RYAN DUNN
                            MARK ROCHESTER
                            ALISON GIESCHEN
                            ALICE HANN
                            KIMBERLY HANN
                            ERIN ELIZABETH SEEDS
                            ANITA DEARAGON
                            CHRISTY MCHENRY
                            CAROLINE SEARCY
                            CORINA CLARK
                            SARAH JENKINSON
                            PERRI FISHER
                            GUY RODAS
                            ERIKA NESLER
                            WHIDBEY ISLAND PONY CLUB
                            KARIN BISHOP
                            JOANNA HERRIGSTAD

                            APRIL 2010
                            GARY MCDONALD

                            MAY 2010
                            JENNIFER ROBERTS
                            LORI BENNETT
                            ASHLEIGH CLAIRE BENNETT
                            LYNN CLAIRE LLP
                            SARAH-JANE FRANKLIN
                            TRACIE RUPERT

                            JUNE 2010
                            NICOLE IMBRIGLIO
                            JEANNETTE GREELEY
                            KATHLEEN KOPP
                            DARYL GLAZER
                            JASON KELLEY

                            (to be continued)


                            • That is great list, but it also would be nice to know why they are on the Hearing Committee Rulings list.


                              • Pony Penny - it's easy to look up.

                                Go to www.usef.org.

                                Click on "Rules & Regulations" (on the left navigation).

                                Select your year.

                                Select your hearing.

                                Download the PDF.



                                • (This info is all available online but in non-OCR-friendly PDFs - and there is no index...d'oh)


                                  • Some of the more “colorful” reported violations:
                                    From Dec 2009/January 2010:
                                    The Committee Members present received and accepted a plea agreement tendered pursuant to Chapter 6, GR617, wherein MICHAEL NEWMAN, KAREN NEWMAN, and AUBREY HILL FARM of Pace, FL, violated Chapter 9, GR907.3, Chapter 11, GR1102, GR1105, and GR1107, and Rule HP127 (2008 Rules) of this Federation, in that MICHAEL NEWMAN, KAREN NEWMAN, and AUBREY HILL FARM applied for a recording for the pony, Short Story, although the pony already had a recording number under a different name; failed to advise the Federation of the name change from Saltwood Cecily to Short Story; had Short Story re-measured (as small) although there was already a permanent measurement for the same pony under the name Saltwood Cecily (as medium); allowed Short Story to be shown in the Small Green Pony Hunter and Small Pony Hunter divisions during the 2008 competition year although the pony’s permanent measurement was medium; and misrepresented the pony’s identity, age, and height on entry blanks during the 2007 and 2008 competition year.
                                    Anyone want to guess at what the penalty was for this? No cheating by looking at the hearing report!


                                    • Were they whipped with a wet noodle? Just kidding


                                      • One month suspension.....after they allegedly re-measured a pony improperly, renamed it, showed it in shows it wasn't eligible in, and lied about its age/height/name/ID, etc., for TWO YEARS.


                                        • That's quite a friggin' list .