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New York Times article - USEF and Humble

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  • Originally posted by leyla25 View Post
    the problem is if you out the BNTs and you have a child showing or yourself, the judges will retaliate against you. Some of the BNTs are also judges.
    Too damned bad, you** hobbiests. If the price of admission to a fun sport is co-signing drugging animals, then it's time to rethink your definition of fun.

    On this thread and the other, I am sympathetic to the folks who make their money in the Hunter Industry (save the trainers). But that does not apply to the amateurs and show parents Who Could Have Done Otherwise.

    ETA: And by "you", I mean the Royal We-- myself included. I do this for fun and I supply the money. If I quit, I take away the incentive to drug horses and snow the owners/funders of the whole game.
    Last edited by mvp; Jan. 1, 2013, 03:36 PM.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat

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    • Originally posted by leyla25 View Post
      the problem is if you out the BNTs and you have a child showing or yourself, the judges will retaliate against you. Some of the BNTs are also judges.
      So ... when I read this I wonder why I would ever want to subject my child to this sport, if I cannot count on officials judging fairly. Even if the judges are not biased against me or my child... what is the point if you truly believe there is this level of corruption?
      If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

      Comment


      • Originally posted by skydy View Post
        I think the problem REALLY is, that even if you have leased a pony for your child to show at Devon ,(a competition held under USEF rules) and it drops, convulses and dies at the end of a needle, administered by Elizabeth Mandarino the "trainer", and you PAY to file a protest with USEF (because something must be wrong yes?), the result is that the "trainer" sues YOU,the person who leased the pony and filed the protest, and USEF throws it's hands in the air and claims that they can't do a thing about it.

        Do you really believe that reporting to USEF that someone is injecting their horse with a banned substance would have any conequence whatsoever when a dead pony at the end of a needle is beyond USEF's ability to handle?

        The problem does not lie with honest competitors not stepping up to report the doping of horses, but with the USEF that claims that it is unable to punish this behaviour.
        IMO, the USEF hung the protester out to dry.

        Were I an attorney hired by the protester whose job it was to give "odds" on the outcome or damage done by even filing the protest, I'd advise against it.

        That's because (truth aside), the protestor had these things working against her:

        A. A deep-pocketed trainer with a litigious history as her opponent. IMO, anyone who goes into litigation without calculating the odds of a countersuit and the cost of that defense hasn't thought deeply enough.

        B. An already murky set of D&M rules.

        C. A USEF that has shown itself to side with the trainer-branch of its constituency without fail.

        So the USEF has to change for three reasons in light of this case:

        1. The D&M rules which have long been known to suck are now known to suck by readers of the NYT as well as the horsey set.

        2. The USEF has lost credibility as a private governing body that can police its industry. To the extent that it cares, the public will step in.... just as it did with so many other disciplines before this one.

        3. The USEF and Mandarino's 9 lawyers have clearly demonstrated the risk of filing a protest to all would-be whistle blowers. The USEF therefore has an additional problem: Making the protest process viable at all.
        Last edited by mvp; Jan. 1, 2013, 03:37 PM.
        The armchair saddler
        Politically Pro-Cat

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        • If all these drugs remain legal to use, I'd like to see the requirement added to file a D&M report for every drug... and I'd like it to be in a public database.

          I also think that USEF needs to consider amplifying the D&M rules to apply to patterns over time and across a whole barn. For example, I have no problem with a single occasion of administration of dex. But I do have a problem with it being administered at every show... especially because I believe it creates a substantial risk to the horse's health without actually doing anything anyway. So maybe we continue to keep dex legal for a single show... but if you administer it for three shows in a year, that's an offense.
          If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Eventer13 View Post
            When I said that, I was talking about the COTHers who have no problem saying "I saw a BNT/BNT's groom sticking a horse right before a class" but won't come out here and say who it was. Scott Steward HAS been outed... he's made it to the D&M list, everyone here knows he has some sketchy drug practices. Its up to them to decide if they want to train with him. But at least its well-known.

            If PH wants to put a cheater on their cover, that's their decision. I don't get the magazine anymore. But I'm talking about all the other trainers that *aren't* getting caught, where someone has seen them inject a horse with a questionable substance or knows of someone (client) that has heard them admit to the practice.

            I have heard of several trainers "outed" on the eventing forum for poor training practices, to the point where I won't clinic with those trainers. Luckily, drugging isn't a huge problem in that sport (not sure if I've ever heard of it happening, actually, although I'm sure it has). But I would have no problem telling everyone here if someone's working student for an upper level eventer said her horses got a little Ace before their dressage test. Its better than hinting that its happening but not giving anyone the chance to know who to avoid.
            I think you are missing the point and the power of the Mandarino case.

            Whether we are talking about Mandarino being nailed to the wall, or Scott Steward and a magazine being publicly criticized, the point is to make an example of these people and also to show that there are appreciable consequences. PH doesn't want its broad readership to wonder if they endorse the drugging that goes on in the Hunters, which may be a bit of a surprise to them. And that public has gotten things done in the past-- it got GM to stop calling people fat in his Jumping Critique column, and I think the hue and cry about pictures of riders without helmets has made inroads.
            The armchair saddler
            Politically Pro-Cat

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            • Originally posted by gumshoe View Post
              If the kid or her parents catch on to what's happening, buh-bye. There's a sucker born every minute and another kid who has been waiting for a spot with this "BNT".

              ....
              Edit: I don't think for a second that this absolves the parents of these kids of any responsibility. It's about time more kids were required to have more responsibility in the care of their horses. Not just arriving at the barn 10 minutes before a lesson starts to a perfectly groomed and tacked up horse. Ask questions. What is it exactly that I'm paying for with this "meds" charge on my invoice? Parents fully enable it to happen.
              IME, parents and some ammies who own horses at full service barns do things that look to me like Active Denial. I believe they purposely don't ask or dig to deeply.

              I say this in part because when I have asked what I consider "normal" questions of trainers and vets working on my horse, they have sometimes been surprised that I wanted to know. This also comes from conversations with owners who complain to me about unclear bills for "meds" and then don't pursue it when I say "Well, you have an MBA, use your words and ASK for an itemized list."
              The armchair saddler
              Politically Pro-Cat

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              • Originally posted by Limerick View Post
                I, too, would like to know what vet sells her all that medication. Her bills must be in the thousands each month. And aren't vets obliged to "first do no harm."And if Humble's owner comes on and says the vets approved of his looooooong list of daily meds, I would like to point to Dr. Kent Allen's statement to the New York Times that "
                Dr. Allen, who has extensive show-horse experience, said most veterinarians he knew could not imagine using all these drugs, “particularly large amounts of them in multiple combinations.”
                Going after vets is one way, but I think most of us wouldn't like the consequences. I like being able to own a bottle of bute or a vial of banamine. That goes away when you hold vets to the letter of the law, which, by the way, already requires prescriptions for all meds sold.

                And I think BNTs buy there meds from more than one vet. Yes, plenty of vets know that they are selling kinds and quantities of medications that. They wrestle with the problem. But trainers can game them, too.
                The armchair saddler
                Politically Pro-Cat

                Comment


                • Maybe it's time to give up on the USEF. The USEF has had numerous opportunities to show its own membership that it is serious about horse welfare and anti-doping, but the facts show otherwise. The USEF will always side with insiders and money.

                  This year, we had the Humble incident, the Uriaco (?)/Deslauriers/Clark incident, and the rather tawdry spectacle of the eventing chef d'equipe hiring his mistress as an assistant. When that last thing happens in the real world, as with Arkansas football coach Bobby Petrino, the corrupt cad is shown the door pronto. Not so with the USEF. Not a peep from them about it, and also not a peep from the 'industry news leader' known as the Chronicle of the Horse.

                  The vast majority of the USEF membership, just like the vast majority of the equestrian community, which includes all of us gathered here, does not support the USEF in terms of how it handled these incidents.

                  Perhaps its time to give up on the USEF and equestrian media. Does anyone really believe John Long and his organization wants real change? I'm sure Jane Clark's decision to send her horses and money overseas was more of a blow than anything any large group of ordinary USEF members could come up with.

                  Maybe it's time to get state/local law enforcement, local animal control/welfare and state/local licensing/professional boards involved. You've got a traveling carnival of controlled medications and syringes and unlicensed veterinary activity and child endangerment -- and they're coming to your town soon.

                  Maybe the USEF would start to listen if outside agencies -- with legal authority and powers of arrest and enforcement -- got involved.

                  This is essentially what happened with the sport of cycling. The UCI did nothing about doping, so LE stepped in. This happened in Spain with Operation Puerto, and most recently in the US with USADA and the Postal Service case. There are a number of cyclists and hangers-on who avoid certain European countries as a result -- if they show up, they risk arrest.

                  Sometimes change takes a real shake-up. With USEF, we clearly have a group at the top of the food chain that likes things the way they are with a strong interest in protecting their fiefdom.

                  Comment


                  • Well, I have heard that Florida was investigating one of the Doctor Feelgoods.
                    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                    Thread killer Extraordinaire

                    Comment


                    • Yes, vineyridge, but that's due to this lawsuit. The vet was found negligent and liable for malpractice, and the case was then taken to the state agency in charge of professional licensing.

                      I referred to this case earlier as I made a public records request on it. The horse's vet records are in the file, and if this horse's injection regimen is anything approaching SOP for a show hunter, h/j land is not a place of evidence-based veterinary care.

                      Comment


                      • When I was showing the Children's Hunters at a LOCAL show, I walked in on my (then) "trainer" with a needle in my lease horse's vein....I refused to ride him, parents were livid, and we left without showing at all that weekend. It was all my parents could do to afford for me to ride when I was that age and if they can walk away based on ethics and still pay the bill, then so can these people of much more generous means.
                        Good for you. That took some bravery and gumption. You are good people and hope you go far in life.

                        Mainly I think we should stop worshipping at the alter of people who do this crap. YOU are a horsewoman. The names that get bounced around here that end up on suspension lists are greedy jerks. Time to give them the middle finger and stop being awe of their awesome horses and rides. Load my horse up with enough crap and maybe I could win some $.75 ribbons too.

                        Boo when they come in the ring. Roll your eyes when they prattle on about how nice this horse or that horse is. Give them the same stuck up snob treatment some poor kid on an arab with a dirty saddle pad would be shown. Laugh at their clients. If you are in their barn, move in the middle of the night and don't pay your bill. You'll probably need the cash to actually get your horse trained by someone good.

                        Comment


                        • A while back, I had acquired a fairly nice, but hard to rude 17 hh. NZ TB. I leased him out to a Jr. And had in the contract no showing above 3'6,because he had hock changes. She was with a fairly BNT here in Ga, and they figured out that the horse had some scope. She started shing him in Fla, Miss, and Ga, and started pointing him towards WIHS Children's Jumpers. Then a friend told me how they were jumping him 5 ft at home, and BNT was actually going around bragging to others at shows how much meds he was giving to the horse. Then the girls mom calls me to say that the horse was throwing even the BNT off. I took the horse back, and since I was pregnant, I had to put the horse in training - retraining. His brain was totally fried. It took a long time to get him back again. BNT is still a BNT here in Ga. My horse ended up breaking his hock in the pasture, and had to be pts. Was it connected? Who knows, but it makes me sick knowing what measures some trainers go to, all in name of winning.
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                          • Originally posted by JER View Post
                            Maybe it's time to give up on the USEF. The USEF has had numerous opportunities to show its own membership that it is serious about horse welfare and anti-doping, but the facts show otherwise. The USEF will always side with insiders and money.

                            This year, we had the Humble incident, the Uriaco (?)/Deslauriers/Clark incident, and the rather tawdry spectacle of the eventing chef d'equipe hiring his mistress as an assistant. When that last thing happens in the real world, as with Arkansas football coach Bobby Petrino, the corrupt cad is shown the door pronto. Not so with the USEF. Not a peep from them about it, and also not a peep from the 'industry news leader' known as the Chronicle of the Horse.

                            The vast majority of the USEF membership, just like the vast majority of the equestrian community, which includes all of us gathered here, does not support the USEF in terms of how it handled these incidents.

                            Perhaps its time to give up on the USEF and equestrian media. Does anyone really believe John Long and his organization wants real change? I'm sure Jane Clark's decision to send her horses and money overseas was more of a blow than anything any large group of ordinary USEF members could come up with.

                            Maybe it's time to get state/local law enforcement, local animal control/welfare and state/local licensing/professional boards involved. You've got a traveling carnival of controlled medications and syringes and unlicensed veterinary activity and child endangerment -- and they're coming to your town soon.

                            Maybe the USEF would start to listen if outside agencies -- with legal authority and powers of arrest and enforcement -- got involved.

                            This is essentially what happened with the sport of cycling. The UCI did nothing about doping, so LE stepped in. This happened in Spain with Operation Puerto, and most recently in the US with USADA and the Postal Service case. There are a number of cyclists and hangers-on who avoid certain European countries as a result -- if they show up, they risk arrest.

                            Sometimes change takes a real shake-up. With USEF, we clearly have a group at the top of the food chain that likes things the way they are with a strong interest in protecting their fiefdom.
                            I agree this IS NOT a new problem. USEF and the former AHSA have been well aware of this problem for years and years and yet at the constant urging of members have refused to get serious on the issue. At the least, USEF has been negligent and at the worst, criminal. IMO the attitude and unethical practices of EM and countless others like her are a direct result of the unwillingness of the USEF to abide by it very own mission statement.
                            Last edited by pds; Jan. 1, 2013, 05:29 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JER View Post
                              I referred to this case earlier as I made a public records request on it. The horse's vet records are in the file, and if this horse's injection regimen is anything approaching SOP for a show hunter, h/j land is not a place of evidence-based veterinary care.
                              It's not "h/j land", it's hunter-land. The barns I've been in or around that are focused on jumpers aren't injecting dex/magnesium/etc to turn their horses into lethargic robots, or double-dosing legend to get the hack winner.

                              Many have their issues, no way around that, but excessive administration of sedating drugs is not one of them.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Carolinadreamin' View Post
                                According to the NY Times article, the last injection Humble received (you know, where the syringe and needle "got lost"), did not contain any of the meds as listed on that long list outside of Humble's stall. Am I reading that correctly? If so, what was in that syringe and has Elizabeth Mandarino stated so?
                                And that's the scary part ~ what was the pony receiving that was NOT listed? I mean, the list only had the drugs on it that are considered "legal" and that list was bad enough, but it doesn't even cover the "illegal/untestable" drugs potentially being administered...

                                ETA: While Mandarino claims it was Legend in the syringe, well, we know her track record for telling the truth. If it really was Legend, I'd love to see her 9 lawyers up against Bayer's corporate lawyers.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by wanderlust View Post
                                  It's not "h/j land", it's hunter-land. The barns I've been in or around that are focused on jumpers aren't injecting dex/magnesium/etc to turn their horses into lethargic robots, or double-dosing legend to get the hack winner.

                                  Many have their issues, no way around that, but excessive administration of sedating drugs is not one of them.
                                  I am not disputing quieting drugs in hunters, but you are blind if you don't see drugging in jumpers.
                                  Come to the dark side, we have cookies

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by wanderlust View Post
                                    It's not "h/j land", it's hunter-land. The barns I've been in or around that are focused on jumpers aren't injecting dex/magnesium/etc to turn their horses into lethargic robots, or double-dosing legend to get the hack winner.
                                    Not really any demand of lethargic robots in the jumpers - could be a hard run for your money in the jumpoffs ;-)

                                    On the serious side. It is really hard to watch the video of this poor pony knowing what he got injected with on a regular basis. I sincerely hope that there will be a change that makes this practice stop. I am also very happy that I´m located where I am and that the rules here is zerotolerance.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by wanderlust View Post
                                      It's not "h/j land", it's hunter-land. The barns I've been in or around that are focused on jumpers aren't injecting dex/magnesium/etc to turn their horses into lethargic robots, or double-dosing legend to get the hack winner.

                                      Many have their issues, no way around that, but excessive administration of sedating drugs is not one of them.
                                      I included the 'j' part of 'h/j' because Mario Deslauriers's hard-partying horse was a jumper, not a hunter.

                                      The injections I referred to with the FL vet were not about sedation, but about joint injections with unusual substances, which could not possibly have any therapeutic value when used that way.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by JER View Post
                                        Maybe it's time to give up on the USEF. The USEF has had numerous opportunities to show its own membership that it is serious about horse welfare and anti-doping, but the facts show otherwise. The USEF will always side with insiders and money.

                                        This year, we had the Humble incident, the Uriaco (?)/Deslauriers/Clark incident, and the rather tawdry spectacle of the eventing chef d'equipe hiring his mistress as an assistant. When that last thing happens in the real world, as with Arkansas football coach Bobby Petrino, the corrupt cad is shown the door pronto. Not so with the USEF. Not a peep from them about it, and also not a peep from the 'industry news leader' known as the Chronicle of the Horse.

                                        The vast majority of the USEF membership, just like the vast majority of the equestrian community, which includes all of us gathered here, does not support the USEF in terms of how it handled these incidents.

                                        Perhaps its time to give up on the USEF and equestrian media. Does anyone really believe John Long and his organization wants real change? I'm sure Jane Clark's decision to send her horses and money overseas was more of a blow than anything any large group of ordinary USEF members could come up with.

                                        Maybe it's time to get state/local law enforcement, local animal control/welfare and state/local licensing/professional boards involved. You've got a traveling carnival of controlled medications and syringes and unlicensed veterinary activity and child endangerment -- and they're coming to your town soon.

                                        Maybe the USEF would start to listen if outside agencies -- with legal authority and powers of arrest and enforcement -- got involved.

                                        This is essentially what happened with the sport of cycling. The UCI did nothing about doping, so LE stepped in. This happened in Spain with Operation Puerto, and most recently in the US with USADA and the Postal Service case. There are a number of cyclists and hangers-on who avoid certain European countries as a result -- if they show up, they risk arrest.

                                        Sometimes change takes a real shake-up. With USEF, we clearly have a group at the top of the food chain that likes things the way they are with a strong interest in protecting their fiefdom.
                                        The Pennsylvania State Police are still investigating I believe. http://www.ratemyhorsepro.com/news/a...stigation.aspx

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by amberhill View Post
                                          Here is the link to the USEF Transcript of the Humble (Kristen Williams) Hearing just to prove I have NOTHING to hide:

                                          http://amberhillponies.com/Amber_Hil...ranscript.html

                                          Take note on how the hearing committee drills her.
                                          It works for me with windows 7, little hard to load but I can read it...or some of the 136 pages of back and forth.

                                          I would hardly call that transcript much of a defense. EMs lawyer touted "the protester has to prove it, we don't have to produce anything". Then it was pointed out the toxicology was in question because the necropsy was not performed for 36 hours and no blood was pulled in time to get signifigant information...they had to use degraded 36 hours post mortem tissue samples. The body was not even delivered to New Bolton for 12 hours outside the window for viable blood samples.

                                          So when that pathlologist dropped his probes and tools and excitedly called halfway thru the necropsy to report "emerging lung disease"? At least 3 days after the Pony died.

                                          Thats just the first 10 pages.

                                          Who needs RateMyHorsePro? Just read what EM puts up, nobody to sue on that one.

                                          The Pa State Police are involved, no idea to what extent at this point but USEF did rely on them for some help.
                                          When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                                          The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

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