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New York Times article - USEF and Humble

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  • Originally posted by magnolia73 View Post
    The owners really need the prize money or a giant return on investment that there is need to overuse the horses like work mules?
    Work mules owned by an intelligent muleteer aren't overworked. Because s/he knows how to take care of the animals that their livelihood depends on.

    I think the problem is too many riders, not enough horsemen.
    The horse is regarded as no more than an expensive piece of sporting equipment--an expensive tennis racket or set of golf clubs.

    Lots of willful ignorance about the long term effects of showing week in and week out, and the medication "program" that entails.
    Lots of lip service about "I love my horsie", but all hat and no cattle when it comes down to horse's welfare vs. rider's showing ambitions.
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

    Comment


    • My opinion, it isn't about the prize money that goes with a ribbon. It isn't the owners/leasers.

      It's about the trainers. Keep the students' names at the top of every list, then every kid either wants to buy one of her ponies/horses or every kid wants to be in her barn.

      These kids get "groomed" much the way a pedophile "grooms" a child. Tell her how wonderful she is, how special her pony/horse is (the one that has been drugged up by the trainer to be so wonderful). Then the kid outgrows the pony/horse, either because she ages out of the pony or her stellar riding ability, as described by the trainer. She needs a new pony/horse. Guess what? Trainer has the perfect one for her in the barn (also drugged up to be wonderful).

      If the kid or her parents catch on to what's happening, buh-bye. There's a sucker born every minute and another kid who has been waiting for a spot with this "BNT".

      It's all about income generating for the trainer. All the rest is just a means to do it.

      Edit: I don't think for a second that this absolves the parents of these kids of any responsibility. It's about time more kids were required to have more responsibility in the care of their horses. Not just arriving at the barn 10 minutes before a lesson starts to a perfectly groomed and tacked up horse. Ask questions. What is it exactly that I'm paying for with this "meds" charge on my invoice? Parents fully enable it to happen.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by KellyS View Post
        I would not be surprised to find that if a clinical study were carried out, the "effectiveness" noted by "a number of barns" would simply be a placebo effect.

        In addition, Legend is labelled for a maximum administration of 3 doses, 1 week apart. Safety studies used a maximum administration period of 1 dose a week for 9 weeks. While some veterinarians may be recommending Legend's use Q 48 H during competition, that use is certainly off label and has not been evaluated in any clinical studies to date.

        Very few trainers, if any, have any background in veterinary pharmacology; it's no wonder that horses/ponies continue to drop dead at shows. I hardly believe the AVMA would support veterinarians dispensing and recommending such off-label use of many of these "common" horse show drugs. There really is no defense for it.

        I think the 12-hour cutoff for drug administration should pertain to all medications and drugs. No competition horse/pony should be stuck 2 hours prior to a class to receive anything.
        Exactly what I was thinking.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by MistyBlue View Post
          Oddly enough...medicating horses is usually recommended and dosed based on each individual animal's immediate health needs as opposed to how important each show may be.

          But then that's when moral vets do the medicating as opposed to owners, trainers and riders attempting to make uneducated medical decisions based on possible projected income or ribbon placings.
          And therein lies the problem.

          Comment


          • Honestly, even if the pony didn't die, just looking at that medication list makes my head spin. I just cannot see the purpose of giving a "sound with no health issues" small pony 7cc's of Banimine twice a day. Let alone all the other crap he was getting. I just.don't.get.it.
            The Equine Wellness and Nutrition FB Group - Come join us!!
            https://www.facebook.com/groups/equinewellness/

            Comment


            • According to the NY Times article, the last injection Humble received (you know, where the syringe and needle "got lost"), did not contain any of the meds as listed on that long list outside of Humble's stall. Am I reading that correctly? If so, what was in that syringe and has Elizabeth Mandarino stated so?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by gumshoe View Post
                Edit: I don't think for a second that this absolves the parents of these kids of any responsibility. It's about time more kids were required to have more responsibility in the care of their horses. Not just arriving at the barn 10 minutes before a lesson starts to a perfectly groomed and tacked up horse. Ask questions. What is it exactly that I'm paying for with this "meds" charge on my invoice? Parents fully enable it to happen.
                I foresee a day when monthly full training board goes up $200/month and the category of drugs/medications disappears from the bill. I foresee it happening soon and at many different BNT's barns.

                Yes, you heard it here first.
                "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism"

                Charles Krauthammer speaking about Trump

                Comment


                • I know many barns that are ahead of the curve then, because they've been doing that for years....
                  The Equine Wellness and Nutrition FB Group - Come join us!!
                  https://www.facebook.com/groups/equinewellness/

                  Comment


                  • When it comes to testing there isn't one reason why you couldn't test winners and test randomly as well. I have always supported testing winners because if you are medicating illegally and not winning, let's face it, few people are going to emulate your program. If the winners are cheating and being caught that sends a better message than just getting randomly selected. Human nature is to call the latter bad luck, but you will know the former will catch up with you sooner or later.

                    Why not have a program that randomly targets a few divisions where the winners are automatically tested as well as a random selection of horses. If the testers know they have to test at least 4 divisions, perhaps one unrated, one zone rated and two nationally rated divisions, X horses pinning first through third, then that absolutely takes away the rap that some trainers have that they are being targeted. Add to that X horses randomly tested and youhave your bases covered, for what seems to me to not be any additional cost/change in overall testing procedure.
                    Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

                    Comment


                    • Does anyone know who EM's vets are that have provided the scripts for all these injectables? I would love to know who is tending to the vet needs of all those dozens of ponies that she trying to sell/lease. Maybe she has 9 vets to match the 9 lawyers. Really....this is an unbelievable saga. It may set the record on the BB for the most amount of views/comments and the most lawsuits generated from all the comments that have been posted. The Chronicle should have their advertising reps sell premium space on this thread. Maybe AHF can secure a premium slot to advertise all those ponies.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Carolinadreamin' View Post
                        According to the NY Times article, the last injection Humble received (you know, where the syringe and needle "got lost"), did not contain any of the meds as listed on that long list outside of Humble's stall. Am I reading that correctly? If so, what was in that syringe and has Elizabeth Mandarino stated so?
                        She has stated that it was Legend.
                        "Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?" Sun Tzu, The Art of War
                        Rainy
                        Stash

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by gumshoe View Post
                          My opinion, it isn't about the prize money that goes with a ribbon. It isn't the owners/leasers.

                          It's about the trainers. Keep the students' names at the top of every list, then every kid either wants to buy one of her ponies/horses or every kid wants to be in her barn.

                          These kids get "groomed" much the way a pedophile "grooms" a child. Tell her how wonderful she is, how special her pony/horse is (the one that has been drugged up by the trainer to be so wonderful). Then the kid outgrows the pony/horse, either because she ages out of the pony or her stellar riding ability, as described by the trainer. She needs a new pony/horse. Guess what? Trainer has the perfect one for her in the barn (also drugged up to be wonderful).

                          If the kid or her parents catch on to what's happening, buh-bye. There's a sucker born every minute and another kid who has been waiting for a spot with this "BNT".

                          It's all about income generating for the trainer. All the rest is just a means to do it.

                          Edit: I don't think for a second that this absolves the parents of these kids of any responsibility. It's about time more kids were required to have more responsibility in the care of their horses. Not just arriving at the barn 10 minutes before a lesson starts to a perfectly groomed and tacked up horse. Ask questions. What is it exactly that I'm paying for with this "meds" charge on my invoice? Parents fully enable it to happen.
                          I totally agree here, especially with the last part. Said pony mom that initiated the protest knew her daughter's pony was being drugged and allowed the kid to ride anyways, but after her daughter got her ribbons and points is when she said something about it. When I was showing the Children's Hunters at a LOCAL show, I walked in on my (then) "trainer" with a needle in my lease horse's vein....I refused to ride him, parents were livid, and we left without showing at all that weekend. It was all my parents could do to afford for me to ride when I was that age and if they can walk away based on ethics and still pay the bill, then so can these people of much more generous means.

                          Not in EM's defense or anything, but the protesting client sounds like a piece of work. "I'm not going to pay to haul the pony, because he was going that direction anyways for some other reason." Ummm, yeah, no, that's not how it works. "I'm not paying for x, y, and z that I knew the pony was receiving and I didn't refuse at the time of administration, but after the fact I'm going to say I had a problem with it from the start and refuse to pay." Again....it doesn't work like that.

                          Comment


                          • Different industry, but at the Appaloosa World and National shows they test both the winner and one random entry from every class.
                            It's not about the color of the ribbon but the quality of the ride. Having said that, I'd like the blue one please!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by violethorse View Post
                              Does anyone know who EM's vets are that have provided the scripts for all these injectables? I would love to know who is tending to the vet needs of all those dozens of ponies that she trying to sell/lease. Maybe she has 9 vets to match the 9 lawyers. Really....this is an unbelievable saga. It may set the record on the BB for the most amount of views/comments and the most lawsuits generated from all the comments that have been posted. The Chronicle should have their advertising reps sell premium space on this thread. Maybe AHF can secure a premium slot to advertise all those ponies.
                              I, too, would like to know what vet sells her all that medication. Her bills must be in the thousands each month. And aren't vets obliged to "first do no harm."And if Humble's owner comes on and says the vets approved of his looooooong list of daily meds, I would like to point to Dr. Kent Allen's statement to the New York Times that "
                              Dr. Allen, who has extensive show-horse experience, said most veterinarians he knew could not imagine using all these drugs, “particularly large amounts of them in multiple combinations.”

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by DMK View Post
                                When it comes to testing there isn't one reason why you couldn't test winners and test randomly as well. I have always supported testing winners because if you are medicating illegally and not winning, let's face it, few people are going to emulate your program. If the winners are cheating and being caught that sends a better message than just getting randomly selected. Human nature is to call the latter bad luck, but you will know the former will catch up with you sooner or later.

                                Why not have a program that randomly targets a few divisions where the winners are automatically tested as well as a random selection of horses. If the testers know they have to test at least 4 divisions, perhaps one unrated, one zone rated and two nationally rated divisions, X horses pinning first through third, then that absolutely takes away the rap that some trainers have that they are being targeted. Add to that X horses randomly tested and youhave your bases covered, for what seems to me to not be any additional cost/change in overall testing procedure.
                                I'm not disagreeing with your thoughts, but one thing I've noticed...when the "testers" show up on the show grounds, the news spreads like wildfire. It's always interesting to me which trainers/barns scratch certain horses, or load up all the horses and go home.

                                Now, I hate to draw any "conclusions" or anything.

                                Comment


                                • Vet List

                                  Originally posted by Limerick View Post
                                  I, too, would like to know what vet sells her all that medication. Her bills must be in the thousands each month. And aren't vets obliged to "first do no harm."And if Humble's owner comes on and says the vets approved of his looooooong list of daily meds, I would like to point to Dr. Kent Allen's statement to the New York Times that "
                                  Dr. Allen, who has extensive show-horse experience, said most veterinarians he knew could not imagine using all these drugs, “particularly large amounts of them in multiple combinations.”
                                  I reviewed the transcript of the USEF hearing that was linked to this BB by Amberhill....no mention of a vet who is associated with the list of meds that were on the Devon list. I doubt that EM will provide us with the name/s of the vets who prescribed all those but should we ever be privy to that info I would be asking them what they were thinking/doing. Since EM is a New Jersey resident she might use a practice/s there as well as in the Ocala area where she spent the winter. There are also the show vets who are attached to the AA shows in GA and Florida that her horses attended.

                                  Comment


                                  • I find it rather interesting that the USHJA does not have Drug and Medication committees for either hunter or jumper. You'd think that even if the testing is a USEF activity, USHJA would have a committee on drugging in competition. Even if the purpose is only educational.

                                    I get this from the recent Chronicle article on the new USHJA governance structure and accompanying graphic.
                                    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                    Thread killer Extraordinaire

                                    Comment


                                    • I have used Dex for actual hives shortly before a horse show. (I noticed zero difference in the horse's attitiude, by the way.) I have no problem with it being used for hives but that shouldn't happen very often. I think using dex more than once a year is probably suspect. Or maybe you could submit a picture of the horse's hives with your D&M report.
                                      If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Limerick View Post
                                        I, too, would like to know what vet sells her all that medication. Her bills must be in the thousands each month. And aren't vets obliged to "first do no harm."And if Humble's owner comes on and says the vets approved of his looooooong list of daily meds, I would like to point to Dr. Kent Allen's statement to the New York Times that "
                                        Dr. Allen, who has extensive show-horse experience, said most veterinarians he knew could not imagine using all these drugs, “particularly large amounts of them in multiple combinations.”
                                        Not uncommon at all. Many trainer get a blanket script for all kinds of meds in which they keep on file at many online pharmacies. The trainer bills the clients for the meds. In a lease situation the lessor would be paying for the meds.

                                        Comment


                                        • A reminder that while it's fine to discuss this article and its related subjects, please do so without the foul language, personal commentary, etc., to comply with our posting policies.

                                          We've edited/removed a few recent posts.

                                          Thanks,
                                          Mod 1

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