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New York Times article - USEF and Humble

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  • Originally posted by cdnsp0rthorse View Post
    Is dex legal to use at a show in USA?
    Originally posted by PonyPenny View Post
    Yes, within certain limits.
    But not for the purpose of making a horse quiet. It's not legal to use it that way in any amount. That element of the D&M rules is one of the primary causes of this problem.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat

    Comment


    • I don't see anywhere in the article where is says that Carrie Ray is a steward.

      Also, it would be a conflict for a steward to have a family member or trainer showing at a show they were officiating.

      FYI- a quick search of the LOC does not show that Carrie Ray is a USEF steward.

      I suspect you read the one sentence where the say in the steward's report, Carrie Ray is quoted as saying. That is not stating that Carrie Ray is the steward, but that the stewards report has a quote from her.

      Also, I am not sure what eye witness information you would expect from the steward as this occurred for the start of the show. This all happened at least an hour before the start of the show. Stewards only need to be there by the start of the show, however most are there approx. 30 mins before.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by MHM View Post
        Exactly. All the horses deserve that protection, not just the winners.
        A philosophy that is a lovely as it is expensive.

        But look, everyone shows to try and win. Don't the also rans get protection if the winners are tested? Who would bother with a horse who always was 5th in his division... so long as you could drug him?
        The armchair saddler
        Politically Pro-Cat

        Comment


        • [
          Originally posted by juststartingout View Post
          I'd rather spend time enlisting! ALL like minded people to change what is .... rich poor and in between ... than complain about the bad actors who happen to have money is ... they are just part of the problem like any other bad actors
          by juststartingout


          I don't know if Mrs. Williams would agree.....she lost her money to file a protest and now is becoming embroiled in a lawsuit.[/QUOTE]

          ANd -- she did the right thing and that has a satisfaction all of its own. The suit against her - if it is even filed - is frivolous and everyone knows that... my guess - she would agree and she would probably do it all over again[/QUOTE]

          You are still ignoring the money problem.

          Would you file a protest if you knew that that might entail the cost of defending yourself in a separate legal battle?

          I wouldn't. Getting someone to quit drugging show horses paired with a governing body that has show itself to have no interest in really doing that it not a cause I'll go bankrupt for.

          IMO, no one asking the USEF to enforce its own rules should be subject to this risk. If they are, it means that the rich can do what they want-- those with deep enough pockets can cheat because they can afford to threaten further litigation. I suppose that other people with still deeper pockets can pursue these protests. But raising the stakes this way as Mandarino's suit has takes the option of protesting out of most USEF members' options.
          The armchair saddler
          Politically Pro-Cat

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Eventer13 View Post
            So, these people who hint about BNTs that drug their horses... why don't you out them? Aren't you perpetuating the problem? Maybe if these BNTs were publicly shunned they might be less likely to drug their horses?
            Start it up, then!

            I want you to write a letter to the editor of Practical Horseman criticizing that magazine for featuring a trainer who has been set down for D&M infractions in recent memory. Cite the Humble hubbub to support your "outing" of Mr. Stewart and disappointment of PH if you wish. But put your money where your mouth is. I'll look forward to reading your letter of BNT shunning.
            The armchair saddler
            Politically Pro-Cat

            Comment


            • the problem is if you out the BNTs and you have a child showing or yourself, the judges will retaliate against you. Some of the BNTs are also judges.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Molly99 View Post
                Random testing is really the best option, for various reasons. I do agree that at certain level events testing the top 3 would be good as well, but not a rule. Random implies that anyone at anytime can be tested. That impacts every horse at the show, not just the winners.
                Mvp, perhaps you missed that my post was in response to the above comment regarding the value of random testing. If people know that ANY horse might be tested at any time, that protects ALL the horses.

                Originally posted by mvp View Post
                A philosophy that is a lovely as it is expensive.

                But look, everyone shows to try and win. Don't the also rans get protection if the winners are tested? Who would bother with a horse who always was 5th in his division... so long as you could drug him?
                There are plenty of horses that are very unlikely to get top ribbons in certain competitions- the kind, safe, slow, habitual four-faulter in a big childrens' jumper division at WEF, the novice adult hunter whose rider will usually miss at least one distance in every class, if not more. Those horses still deserve protection, even if they never win.

                There's the old saying that 10% of the horses win 90% of the ribbons. The other 90% of the horses also need protection from bad chemistry experiments.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by cdnsp0rthorse View Post
                  Is dex legal to use at a show in USA?
                  Originally posted by Molly99 View Post
                  I don't see anywhere in the article where is says that Carrie Ray is a steward.

                  Also, it would be a conflict for a steward to have a family member or trainer showing at a show they were officiating.

                  FYI- a quick search of the LOC does not show that Carrie Ray is a USEF steward.

                  I suspect you read the one sentence where the say in the steward's report, Carrie Ray is quoted as saying. That is not stating that Carrie Ray is the steward, but that the stewards report has a quote from her.

                  Also, I am not sure what eye witness information you would expect from the steward as this occurred for the start of the show. This all happened at least an hour before the start of the show. Stewards only need to be there by the start of the show, however most are there approx. 30 mins before.
                  Gotcha. No, I didn't expect the Steward to have been there when this one pony was collapsing on cross-ties. But I did recall from an earlier thread a less-than-Sherlock Holmes'-best report and wondered why that was.
                  The armchair saddler
                  Politically Pro-Cat

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by MHM View Post
                    Mvp, perhaps you missed that my post was in response to the above comment regarding the value of random testing. If people know that ANY horse might be tested at any time, that protects ALL the horses.



                    There are plenty of horses that are very unlikely to get top ribbons in certain competitions- the kind, safe, slow, habitual four-faulter in a big childrens' jumper division at WEF, the novice adult hunter whose rider will usually miss at least one distance in every class, if not more. Those horses still deserve protection, even if they never win.
                    Yeah, but holey mole the cost of protecting every last horse showing!
                    The armchair saddler
                    Politically Pro-Cat

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by leyla25 View Post
                      the problem is if you out the BNTs and you have a child showing or yourself, the judges will retaliate against you. Some of the BNTs are also judges.
                      I think the problem REALLY is, that even if you have leased a pony for your child to show at Devon ,(a competition held under USEF rules) and it drops, convulses and dies at the end of a needle, administered by Elizabeth Mandarino the "trainer", and you PAY to file a protest with USEF (because something must be wrong yes?), the result is that the "trainer" sues YOU,the person who leased the pony and filed the protest, and USEF throws it's hands in the air and claims that they can't do a thing about it.

                      Do you really believe that reporting to USEF that someone is injecting their horse with a banned substance would have any conequence whatsoever when a dead pony at the end of a needle is beyond USEF's ability to handle?

                      The problem does not lie with honest competitors not stepping up to report the doping of horses, but with the USEF that claims that it is unable to punish this behaviour.
                      Last edited by skydy; Jan. 1, 2013, 04:06 AM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by mvp View Post
                        Yeah, but holey mole the cost of protecting every last horse showing!
                        I'm not suggesting they test them all. I'm endorsing the idea of testing AT RANDOM. That discourages everybody from breaking the rules. Not just the people who expect to win.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by MHM View Post
                          I'm not suggesting they test them all. I'm endorsing the idea of testing AT RANDOM. That discourages everybody from breaking the rules. Not just the people who expect to win.
                          exactly. this is how it is done at the show series I mentioned. completely random. and up to the vet as to how horses are chosen. some years the vet will roll dice for class number and placing. other years just walking the show grounds w/ steward and saying "that one, that one and that one".

                          it is well known that if your horse is on the show grounds, competing or not, it's "up for" being chosen to have blood pulled. If horse tests positive, the entire barn is disqualified for the current year, and the next.

                          this show series is a large schooling show series. not huge, but a three day event that is well known and fun, there's a littlel bit of everything for everyone. A few years ago, a "BNT" (big fish, little pond) had a horse test positive, claimed that it had been showing colic signs the day before so he gave it banamine. Took his protest all the way to state court, where he lost.

                          Now, I'm not so naive that I believe there are NO drugged horses, but I do know that there are a lot less drugged horses than at the A rated shows that are local.

                          working on the committee for a couple of years, I believe the cost to test (test kit plus lab fees) is about $500, per horse. Is there no way the larger shows couldn't budget in a few tests?? we test 3 horses per show/ 3 shows per series. seems like not alot, as there's a couple hundred horses showing, but it's the RANDOMNESS that really discourages attempting.

                          Comment


                          • I was under the impression that drug testing at USEF shows was random. That they could test any horse on the show grounds whether it was showing or not.
                            M
                            Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from behind, or a fool from any direction

                            Comment


                            • it is well known that if your horse is on the show grounds, competing or not, it's "up for" being chosen to have blood pulled. If horse tests positive, the entire barn is disqualified for the current year, and the next.
                              Is it the entire barn or anyone under that trainer?
                              Because if an owner has their horse stuck without their knowledge because that trainer wants everyone under his/her name at the show to look good...and that horse gets DQed, owner gets pissed off, can owner leave barn for new barn and continue to show elsewhere or are they screwed for up to 2 seasons no matter where they ride out of?

                              Or if the trainer's own horse from a barn is tested positive but none of the boarders/students are...are they all screwed from showing for that long or can they move and show under someone else?
                              You jump in the saddle,
                              Hold onto the bridle!
                              Jump in the line!
                              ...Belefonte

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Monarch View Post
                                I was under the impression that drug testing at USEF shows was random. That they could test any horse on the show grounds whether it was showing or not.
                                M
                                It is random now. Some people were suggesting that should change to concentrating on the winners. I beg to differ, for the reasons stated above.

                                I believe as it stands now, a horse must be entered in the show to be subject to drug testing. If you have a non-showing horse on the grounds, it is not subject to testing, IIRC.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by MistyBlue View Post
                                  Is it the entire barn or anyone under that trainer?
                                  Because if an owner has their horse stuck without their knowledge because that trainer wants everyone under his/her name at the show to look good...and that horse gets DQed, owner gets pissed off, can owner leave barn for new barn and continue to show elsewhere or are they screwed for up to 2 seasons no matter where they ride out of?

                                  Or if the trainer's own horse from a barn is tested positive but none of the boarders/students are...are they all screwed from showing for that long or can they move and show under someone else?
                                  I would have to investigate that one, but my understanding is that, for the current showing year, you are out. If you move barns when the current year is over, I would assume you could show then next year under a different trainer.

                                  Comment


                                  • Thanks for clarifying MHM. Re read GR402 testing misunderstood earlier.
                                    M
                                    Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from behind, or a fool from any direction

                                    Comment


                                    • I just wanted to post this... my New Year's Resolution is to be a bitch when needed.

                                      If you KNOWINGLY drug a horse too sore, too unsettled, too lame.... for the purpose of winning ribbons, you are an [ass]. I'd like to take you to the nearest Cross Fit Box. Make you workout. Pump you fill of pain meds and some valium. Take you back the next day and the next and the next. Just keep repeating, keep "fixing you up" without a break. Joint injections, whatever. Then when I finally break you, I'll dump you somewhere.

                                      People who do this [edit] are an embarassment and more disgusting than the bikers and others that drug to win because you bringing along a partner with no say in your disgusting activity.

                                      I understand the need for occasional therapy, but it goes too far too often. Really? There is that much money in the hunters? The owners really need the prize money or a giant return on investment that there is need to overuse the horses like work mules?

                                      [edit] Did she even consider the hit to her bottom line when that pony collapsed under a young rider who's parents probably had access to bigger lawyers? WTF happens to your bottom line, USEF and trainers when your stupidity and greed kills a cute little rich girl who's drugged pony stumbles and she is injured or worse yet, killed?

                                      You know, occasional bute and joint injections and even some Ace are one thing.... but these wonderful combos that don't test are just despicable. May all of the people who use these things go rot in hell and I pray for your horses.
                                      Last edited by Moderator 1; Jan. 1, 2013, 02:25 PM. Reason: language

                                      Comment


                                      • Why can't testing involve both scenarios? Mandatory tests for the top 3 or 4 places plus random tests for any horses registered to show? In many cases there will probably be some overlap in the top placings anyway, which should help with any increased costs.
                                        "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford

                                        Comment


                                        • When I said that, I was talking about the COTHers who have no problem saying "I saw a BNT/BNT's groom sticking a horse right before a class" but won't come out here and say who it was. Scott Steward HAS been outed... he's made it to the D&M list, everyone here knows he has some sketchy drug practices. Its up to them to decide if they want to train with him. But at least its well-known.

                                          If PH wants to put a cheater on their cover, that's their decision. I don't get the magazine anymore. But I'm talking about all the other trainers that *aren't* getting caught, where someone has seen them inject a horse with a questionable substance or knows of someone (client) that has heard them admit to the practice.

                                          I have heard of several trainers "outed" on the eventing forum for poor training practices, to the point where I won't clinic with those trainers. Luckily, drugging isn't a huge problem in that sport (not sure if I've ever heard of it happening, actually, although I'm sure it has). But I would have no problem telling everyone here if someone's working student for an upper level eventer said her horses got a little Ace before their dressage test. Its better than hinting that its happening but not giving anyone the chance to know who to avoid.

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