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New York Times article - USEF and Humble

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  • Originally posted by Limerick View Post
    I will ask again-is there a valid reason to pack liquid magnesium in your show trunk??
    There's not even a valid reason for a "trainer" to possess the injectable forms of magnesium *off* the show grounds.
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

    Comment


    • In all my years in horses, it wasn't until it became the drug du jour that I ever saw the stuff.
      Laurie

      Comment


      • Originally posted by PonyPenny View Post
        If you keep up with the comings and goings in hunter land, you definitely know who Scott Stewart is.
        Well, I don't. That's why I was asking.

        I assume the general consensus is that his drug violations are a symptom of a chronic condition?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by JER View Post
          Who is Scott Stewart? His name is mentioned on here repeatedly, usually with nothing other than 'Scott Stewart' in the post.

          So please explain, for those of us who don't speak the shorthand of the h/j scene.
          Scott is one of the most successful hunter riders and trainers in the country. He was suspended for a month within the past year for a medication violation, I believe involving using bute and other NSAIDS in amounts over the allowed limits. He's also apparently on the cover of this month's In Stride (USHJA) magazine, which is leaving bad taste in people's mouth given the recent infractions.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by fair judy View Post
            seriously, go to the Amber Hill Farm facebook page and say what you feel on her wall. i did, i am sarah hochschwender. also look on elizabeth's personal page. first thing you see are names of people i respect and consider friends in most cases. why are Robin Greenwood, Bill Schaub, Anna Jane White-Mullin, Cynthia Williams, Jimmy Lee, Missy Roads, Ron Danta, and Don Stewart acting as de facto endorsers of this lunatic ? WHY not just quietly delete your name from her list? this crazy woman has already proven that she relies heavily on facebook and other internet connections to gain clients. she will point to her position vby showing these REAL BNT names as proof of her legitimacy. this is not about that poor child and being NICE to her. we have a cancer in this business, and it is time to excise it.
            I am so honored to be considered a real BNT! But you could have at least spelled my name correctly.

            I am not trying to make light of what is a very real problem, however I think EM is a red herring.

            As far as unfriending her, I just havent gotten around to it, and frankly, I have never even met the lady, as I suspect many of the BNT's on her SOCIAL MEDIA page also have not.
            "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
            carolprudm

            Comment


            • Originally posted by PonyPenny View Post
              If you keep up with the comings and goings in hunter land, you definitely know who Scott Stewart is.
              No need to be snotty to JER, he's an eventer.
              "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

              Comment


              • Originally posted by gumshoe View Post
                Were these shows where you stabled 5 or 6 days at a time? Or shows that were multiple weeks and the horses lived on the show grounds for 3 weeks without leaving?
                Most shows I've done are weekend deals but I've also done ones of consecutive weeks where they were stabled for 10 nights or so on the grounds and also trips for endurance rides (including 100s and multi-days) that lasted several weeks, with the horses tied to the trailer the whole time. It didnt make me want to start injecting anything. In my world, colic is a rare experience and if it does occur, I'd call the vet if it doesnt resolve itself quickly. Or wonder whats wrong with my management that I have so many colics and problems that *need* the constant medication.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by fair judy View Post
                  ..... and here you have it folks. if you even POST to Amber Hill's wall you get the attention of tammy tucker, attorney to the lunatic. what a piece of work she must be....... " Ms. Hochschwender,
                  Thank you for contacting my client, Elizabeth Mandarino. I understand that you post on the Chronicle Forums as “fair judy.” In June of this year, you posted that Kristen Williams, the woman who filed the protest regarding Humble, had “counsel for the protest.” You also have posted other comments that indicate a working knowledge of facts that are currently being litigated in a case pending in New Jersey. I would like to schedule a time to interview you by telephone regarding these facts. Depending on our discussion, I will be able to determine if we will ultimately need to issue a subpoena for your testimony.
                  Please let me know a convenient day and time after January 1 to talk.
                  Thank you, Tammy Tucker
                  tamara.tucker@nelsontucker.com, 434-979-0049"
                  That is simply over the top ridiculous! What a world we live in!
                  http://community.webshots.com/user/summitspringsfarm

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Hattie View Post
                    I don't know if Mrs. Williams would agree.....she lost her money to file a protest and now is becoming embroiled in a lawsuit.
                    On that point - is anyone aware of a legal defense fund or similar for Mrs. Williams? I'd happily contribute.

                    Comment


                    • So Scott Stewart does only hunters? That would mean he never rides under FEI rules, and has no incentive to even experiment with a no-drugs regimen.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by fair judy View Post
                        ..... and here you have it folks. if you even POST to Amber Hill's wall you get the attention of tammy tucker, attorney to the lunatic. what a piece of work she must be....... " Ms. Hochschwender,
                        Thank you for contacting my client, Elizabeth Mandarino. I understand that you post on the Chronicle Forums as “fair judy.” In June of this year, you posted that Kristen Williams, the woman who filed the protest regarding Humble, had “counsel for the protest.” You also have posted other comments that indicate a working knowledge of facts that are currently being litigated in a case pending in New Jersey. I would like to schedule a time to interview you by telephone regarding these facts. Depending on our discussion, I will be able to determine if we will ultimately need to issue a subpoena for your testimony.
                        Please let me know a convenient day and time after January 1 to talk.
                        Thank you, Tammy Tucker
                        tamara.tucker@nelsontucker.com, 434-979-0049"
                        Every see a cartoon with the little birds flying about going "cukoo cukoo"?
                        Come to the dark side, we have cookies

                        Comment


                        • What does EM think she is going to end up with after all this? More clients who will flock to her farm? She's doing nothing but continuing to damage her reputation even further.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Horseymama View Post
                            I don't think $2,000 for the first infraction is enough. I think it needs to hurt, as in at least $15,000 for each person; owner, rider and trainer, and suspension for a year. Then make it progressively more if there are successive incidents. That way people will think twice before violating the rules. And they will take a lot more responsibility for the horses they ride, train, and own.

                            The USEF needs to be an organization that is standing up for the horses and the fairness of competition. Right now they are just an "ol' boys club."
                            Part of the problem in setting appropriate fines is that there's no single level that has equal pain, because it depends on your income and financial resources. I prefer nice long suspensions. I don't see how a large fine benefits me as a fellow competitor.
                            If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JER View Post
                              So Scott Stewart does only hunters? That would mean he never rides under FEI rules, and has no incentive to even experiment with a no-drugs regimen.
                              That's an interesting point.

                              If you won't ever be in a situation in which you cannot use drugs (meaning certain drugs at certain limits are always allowed), where is the motivation to develop your program so that you don't need them?

                              Maybe there in lies the real crux of the problem.
                              www.englishivyfarms.com
                              Hunters, Jumpers, & Welsh Ponies
                              All I pay my psychiatrist is the cost of feed and hay, and he'll listen to me any day. ~Author Unknown

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                                Yes, indeedy. The USEF has been a force in the FEI to move away from zero tolerance. I don't consider that a benefit. As to your last question, the answer is "Yes". If the FEI penalty applied, maybe more riders, trainers and owners would be less willing to inject.

                                I agree that hunters isn't an FEI discipline, so FEI penalties wouldn't apply there. But we're still talking horses and riders and horse welfare; and why should hunters be less protected than reiners and show jumpers and eventers and dressage horses? Or, as the USEF has done, reduce the protection for the other disciplines to match that of hunters?
                                I think there is a case to be made either way on FEI zero tolerance. One of the issues has been that different labs around the world have different capabilities, so setting a threshold seems appropriate to equalize results across different labs. I also think there's a difference in what's appropriate medication for a horse competing at the Olympic games versus a horse that is taking a child to his first walk-trot class. That said, if we have to give up bute for the beginner horses in order to clean up the rest, then IMHO so be it.

                                However, there is honest disagreement about whether the FEI zero tolerance is actually in the best interest for the horses all the time. The problem truly is that there are too many people in this sport who don't enjoy their horses as individuals and who don't enjoy having a good time being with their horses at a horse show if they don't win.

                                And we come back to the fact that magnesium isn't going to test.

                                I like moving to a plan where the trainer, rider, and owner are all held responsible and suspended.

                                I like a plan that says that a horse can't have an injection within 12 hours of competition, or that if it is it has to be given by a vet with a D&M report filed. I recognize that it wouldn't be enforceable off the show grounds, but having that rule in place sure would have been handy for this particular case.
                                If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                                Comment


                                • Earlier I made a comment speculating that that list of regular drugs in combination could potentially contribute to the lung disease they saw.

                                  It occurs to me this morning that if you were a veterinary researcher wanted to test the long term health effects of all those drugs stacked, you probably couldn't get it past your university ethics committee.
                                  If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by poltroon View Post
                                    The problem truly is that there are too many people in this sport who don't enjoy their horses as individuals and who don't enjoy having a good time being with their horses at a horse show if they don't win.

                                    This is the one of the biggest issues we now have in the show world. So I agree that the owners bear the biggest responsibility and should share the consequences of harsher penalties.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by fair judy View Post
                                      ..... and here you have it folks. if you even POST to Amber Hill's wall you get the attention of tammy tucker, attorney to the lunatic. what a piece of work she must be....... " Ms. Hochschwender,
                                      Thank you for contacting my client, Elizabeth Mandarino. I understand that you post on the Chronicle Forums as “fair judy.” In June of this year, you posted that Kristen Williams, the woman who filed the protest regarding Humble, had “counsel for the protest.” You also have posted other comments that indicate a working knowledge of facts that are currently being litigated in a case pending in New Jersey. I would like to schedule a time to interview you by telephone regarding these facts. Depending on our discussion, I will be able to determine if we will ultimately need to issue a subpoena for your testimony.
                                      Please let me know a convenient day and time after January 1 to talk.
                                      Thank you, Tammy Tucker
                                      tamara.tucker@nelsontucker.com, 434-979-0049"
                                      Wow.....I am just speechless!

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by JER View Post
                                        So Scott Stewart does only hunters? That would mean he never rides under FEI rules, and has no incentive to even experiment with a no-drugs regimen.
                                        Originally posted by englishivy View Post
                                        That's an interesting point.

                                        If you won't ever be in a situation in which you cannot use drugs (meaning certain drugs at certain limits are always allowed), where is the motivation to develop your program so that you don't need them?

                                        Maybe there in lies the real crux of the problem.
                                        Meh.

                                        There are many, many people who will never be in a situation that involves FEI rules. The vast majority, in fact. Some of those people medicate their horses in a reasonable, therapeutic way, and some go crazy with the home chemistry experiments.

                                        There are good horsemen and bad horsemen in every discipline, at every level.

                                        Comment


                                        • sorry, double post
                                          www.englishivyfarms.com
                                          Hunters, Jumpers, & Welsh Ponies
                                          All I pay my psychiatrist is the cost of feed and hay, and he'll listen to me any day. ~Author Unknown

                                          Comment

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