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Is she mine or not?

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  • #41
    Originally posted by skydy View Post
    An "old verbal agreement" is also known as "your word".
    If you don't abide by your word, then your word means nothing. That should bother you.

    This person apparently trusted your word (of honor) enough not to require a contract. Don't make them regret trusting you.

    That's my feeling as well. If you want to change the deal...then contact the owner and discuss it with them.
    ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

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    • #42
      Originally posted by Lucassb View Post
      Boy, do I agree with you. Based on what the OP has written here, she has a free lease which was extended beyond the original term by mutual agreement, period, full stop.

      Now there are people on here suggesting that the OP has some sort of ownership claim to the horse, telling her to present the actual owner with the horse's bills, and lawyer up to try to establish ownership. It's all totally wrong.

      I once free leased my horse for a short while to a young adult who loved him quite a bit. In the past I have considered it was a very good experience for everyone, myself included, since I was working too many hours to keep him in consistent work. I am now once again working a zillion hours with limited time to ride, but I chose to just pay my trainer to keep him in work instead; I'v just heard too many horror stories about leasing to ever want to do it again.
      It's too bad, isn't it? The free leases we were lucky to have were win/win. Under the guidance of good trainers, DD improved the horses she free-leased and improved their show records, adding to their value. Now she is working in the industry, which wouldn't have been possible without these opportunities.

      Comment


      • #43
        Originally posted by Atlas Shrugged View Post
        I am only giving a legal argument on behalf of OP, as I am an attorney with lots of experience in the equestrian field. Another thing to note is that with horses, physical possession a huge factor. Owner can't come on Lessee's property and "disturb the peace" by forcibly take the horse, police escort or not. It is a civil matter that will have to wind its ways through the courts. Bottom line.. hire a lawyer!
        Huh. Most lawyers I know only give "legal arguments on behalf of" people who are their CLIENTS. None would be caught dead doling that out online based on situations that are half in the dark. What could possibly go wrong?

        Of course, what do I know, since I'm not an attorney with lots of experience in the equestrian field.

        I benefited greatly from a generous free-lease. That horse was my heart horse too. I would never DREAM of trying to take a horse because I wanted it and felt like I deserved it just for holding up my end of the free lease, as is apparently the case here. I find it even more appalling that others, including those purporting to be lawyers, are offering legal arguments on how to finagle ownership of the horse anyway.

        This isn't preschool. You don't get to just take what you want. Oh wait... you don't even get to do that in preschool

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        • #44
          Originally posted by Muggle Mom View Post
          It's too bad, isn't it? The free leases we were lucky to have were win/win. Under the guidance of good trainers, DD improved the horses she free-leased and improved their show records, adding to their value. Now she is working in the industry, which wouldn't have been possible without these opportunities.
          Yes, it's really a shame. I actually have two very nice horses, and the older one is now essentially retired because I don't have time to ride him. He's perfectly sound and would be better off in work, just to keep him muscled up and limber, but I can't afford to have two in full training, so he just hangs out and is the occasional sub when someone else's horse gets hurt, loses a shoe or whatever. It's a shame since he's really a very nice horse and would prefer having a job, but he's one that will never be for sale and I don't have the bandwidth to manage a lease and all the drama that seems to always come with them.
          **********
          We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
          -PaulaEdwina

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          • #45
            Originally posted by Atlas Shrugged View Post
            Owner can't come on Lessee's property and "disturb the peace" by forcibly take the horse, police escort or not. It is a civil matter that will have to wind its ways through the courts.
            Counselor, it may be more than a civil matter depending on what state this is going on.

            In mine, this might apply:

            2913.02 Theft.

            (A) No person, with purpose to deprive the owner of property or services, shall knowingly obtain or exert control over either the property or services in any of the following ways:

            (1) Without the consent of the owner or person authorized to give consent;

            (2) Beyond the scope of the express or implied consent of the owner or person authorized to give consent;

            (3) By deception;

            (4) By threat;

            (5) By intimidation.
            So if that were happening in my state, the OP might end up in cuffs if the owner pushes the right buttons.

            And I bet most states have a relatively similar definition of theft.

            And oh, let's review the penalties for such theft. Since it appears this horse is valued at at least $1,000 it is a felony. And the degree of felony obviously increases with the value of said animal......

            If the value of the property or services stolen is one thousand dollars or more and is less than seven thousand five hundred dollars or if the property stolen is any of the property listed in section 2913.71 of the Revised Code, a violation of this section is theft, a felony of the fifth degree. If the value of the property or services stolen is seven thousand five hundred dollars or more and is less than one hundred fifty thousand dollars, a violation of this section is grand theft, a felony of the fourth degree.
            So the moral of the story for the OP is do the right thing.

            A) You know it's not your horse
            B) Trying to make it yours *might* backfire in not just a civil issue, but also a criminal felony.

            Comment


            • #46
              I had a similar experience when I was a kid -- except, the person did tell us (my dad and I) she was GIVING us the horse
              so it's not similar at all.

              This was set up as a free lease and the costs the OP has incurred are not evidence of ownership but merely part and parcel of a 'free lease". That's how free leases work.

              Either give the horse back or buy it - or keep doing what you've been doing. .
              yes.

              This not a situation where YOU need a lawyer but the horse's owner may need one unfortunately.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #47
                I would just like to clear a few things up. I in now way am trying to claim ownership of this horse, if I felt she was mine then I would not have been asking if she was or not! I am not trying to do anything illegal in any way to obtain an unknown ownership or obtain ownership through legal matters rather than the correct way through the owner. I am in a stituation that I have never experienced before and have never known someone to be in a similar situation so I was looking for some input as to what others though was happening. So excuse me for looking for guidance from others whom I thought would give me some insight, rather Im being made to look like a criminal. Guess I learned my lesson in posting and freedom of speech.

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                • #48
                  Originally posted by Little Secret View Post
                  So excuse me for looking for guidance from others whom I thought would give me some insight, rather Im being made to look like a criminal. Guess I learned my lesson in posting and freedom of speech.
                  You have been given excellent guidance. Some of the posts here, including mine, were in counterpoint to others who have given their advice.

                  My latest statement was only a reply to a statement that an ownership dispute was merely a civil matter. I showed, with citation to law, that it might also be a criminal matter.

                  In no way did I or anyone insinuate that you are a thief or dishonorable. Only pointing out the consequences or certain courses of action. So my apologies if it came across in any other way.

                  However, I am not sure what freedom of speech has anything to with this thread. Only the government is restricted from depriving people with their freedom of speech. Private individuals and private organizations are under no such restrictions. We speak here by the grace of the owners and their representatives.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    OP - no, you don't own the horse. Whether there's a recent lease agreement in effect, the fact is there were two previously agreed upon free lease arrangements and an offer to sell which both indicate you don't own the horse. All legal arguments aside, morally you know you don't own this horse. It is presumptous and entitled to assume that a person who has lent your their animal in good faith somehow should confer title to the animal to you simply because they've been absent in checking up on you.
                    Proud Member of the "Tidy Rabbit Tinfoil Hat Wearers" clique and the "I'm in my 30's and Hope to be a Good Rider Someday" clique

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                    • #50
                      Originally posted by Little Secret View Post
                      So what do yall think is it my right to say shes mine or is an old verbal agreement 100% binding?

                      OP...this is what you asked in your first post. Most of us are saying, no, she is not yours and the old verbal agreement is your word.

                      I would say as an owner who has given a similar opportunity to a person close in your age.....I would advise you to contact the owner. Keeping them in the loop and showing how much you care about this horse is important. The reason I've left my horse with the girl who free leases her is because she keeps me updated. So if this is a horse you love....keep the owner in the loop. Drop her a Christmas card letting her know how much you love the horse and that she is doing well. Communication is a two way street. It does bother me that the owner hasn't kept in active touch with you....but also bothers me that you haven't kept in touch with the owner. Good luck.
                      ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        OP, I don't think anybody's making you look like a criminal. Your posts were selfish and unappreciative of the great gift the owner has given you. I agree I think you know she's not yours and were hoping against hope. When you ask for advice, you do not always get the responses you had hoped.
                        That said (written), I'm more taken aback by the posters who advised you to pursue legal action. Thankfully those numbers were limited and the general consensus here is that you need to step up and do the right thing by the owner.
                        I hope it works out for you, the horse, and the current owner.
                        Edit: and this does serve as a lesson about verbal agreements. Yes, a verbal agreement is your word.
                        Born under a rock and owned by beasts!

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          So what do yall think is it my right to say shes mine or is an old verbal agreement 100% binding?
                          wow. The replies you got were in response to your attitude -example above- which shows your complete and utter lack of understanding of the nature of a free lease.

                          Free leases sometimes last for the entire life of the horse and are often verbal agreements based on trust. A handshake or someone's word given should be enough but unfortunately as this thread makes all too clear, it's important these days to get things in writing.

                          On the other hand I know of lots of these arrangements that have worked out well. It depends on the people , their understanding of the agreement and their ethics.

                          .

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by caballero View Post
                            About the only way someone would be prohibited from selling healthy livestock is if that person did not have clear title to the animal.
                            That would make me a little concerned about HER ownership of the animal--a gift is just that, a gift, and I don't know any state where that doesn't mean what is given doesn't belong to the recipient.

                            And OP, the only possible way I could see that you own the animal is if YOU attempted to contact HER, using whatever means state law requires, and after the designated period the law says she failed to contact you. Then the law might view the horse as abandoned. But you would have to attempt to reach her and she would have to completely fail to respond (and one failure to return a call/e-mail wouldn't count.)

                            I mean, you COULD go to court, since there's nothing in writing to prove that the owner leased her instead of gave her to you, either, and the court MIGHT decide that the horse was a gift originally, but they might not, and either way you'd end up paying more than the horse is probably worth in legal fees. Just call the owner, explain you would like to keep the horse, and either get a free lease that's auto-renewing in writing or see what it would take for her to sell her (and ask for a SPECIFIC reference for a law saying she can't transfer a gift, because I really don't think that exists.)
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                            • #54
                              Originally posted by Little Secret View Post
                              I would just like to clear a few things up. I in now way am trying to claim ownership of this horse, if I felt she was mine then I would not have been asking if she was or not! I am not trying to do anything illegal in any way to obtain an unknown ownership or obtain ownership through legal matters rather than the correct way through the owner. I am in a stituation that I have never experienced before and have never known someone to be in a similar situation so I was looking for some input as to what others though was happening. So excuse me for looking for guidance from others whom I thought would give me some insight, rather Im being made to look like a criminal. Guess I learned my lesson in posting and freedom of speech.
                              Ouch. I think your posts have been misunderstood. After this new post - what is (or was) you question? I think what has been misunderstood is what question you want answered. Or what advice are you looking for. The title is "Is she mine or not?"

                              I imagine most posters do not want to be critical or judgy pants of anyone. Clarity however is very hard to come by on bb!

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