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New Amateur Rules 12/1/2012 -Huh?

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  • #81
    What is an example of a shamateur?

    Someone whose family owns a 'puppy farm' who shows their families 'dogs' at dog shows and teaches their siblings how to show the 'dogs' but is on a college dog showing team and therefore cannot be a professional 'dog' shower or she would loose her college scholarship?

    Comment


    • #82
      Originally posted by poltroon View Post
      It seems to me that the Amateur divisions are not meant to encourage catch riding in the first place. It's an interesting twist and perhaps a good way to solve the problem, that if you're truly an amateur and riding for your own pleasure instead of someone else's, you pay your own entry fees. That rule alone may allow for some of the other byzantine pieces to go away.
      Why can't a amateur catch ride? What difference does it make? Why do we want to make it so difficult for amateurs to ride other people's horses? If they are not being paid to ride the horse, then it should not make any difference if the owner pays for the classes. Why do you have a problem with it?

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      • #83
        Originally posted by PonyPenny View Post
        Why can't a amateur catch ride? What difference does it make? Why do we want to make it so difficult for amateurs to ride other people's horses? If they are not being paid to ride the horse, then it should not make any difference if the owner pays for the classes. Why do you have a problem with it?
        I don't know if I have a problem with it or not, just following this particular line of thought.

        The Amateur division, in its intent, is separated from the pro division because amateurs are people who ride for fun, for their own hobby purposes and enjoyment. They do not ride for the benefit of others.

        If someone is paying your entry fees, you are riding for the benefit of the owner.

        An advantage of moving to a standard like this is that it is far far less likely that someone is going to pay entry fees to ride someone else's horse if they're expecting to benefit financially or expecting the owner to benefit from the ride more than the rider will.

        As such, you might be able to simplify rules that currently keep an adult rider from showing a borrowed horse or a lesson horse in the amateur divisions if they work off their lessons and expenses by providing services to their trainer. You might end up being able to get closer to the original intent and also make the rules simpler.

        It's an interesting possibility.
        If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

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        • #84
          Originally posted by EML1960 View Post
          What is an example of a shamateur?

          Someone whose family owns a 'puppy farm' who shows their families 'dogs' at dog shows and teaches their siblings how to show the 'dogs' but is on a college dog showing team and therefore cannot be a professional 'dog' shower or she would loose her college scholarship?
          You can ride on a lub team or IHSA and have your pro card, just not a NCAA team.

          Comment


          • #85
            Can anyone contact USEF about the clarification??

            I get frustrated when I see the non black and white of the wording

            It has promoted a suspicion among amatuers I think especially when you do have the circumstances to dedicate more time in the saddle.

            I personally made the circumstances, I cut my job down to part time and also clean houses -{and no not the farm} to allow me longer days at the barn

            I am in no way as good as a professional but would liked to accomplish the polished amateur !!! I also have friends that ride closer to home that watch me and i watch them , does that us make us pros??????NO but USEF has made everyone whisper about this or that and dont even get me started about setting fences. I love to hear all the trainers coach and let alone my trainer works hard enough little help would be nice.

            And on the shamateur note I have seen the outright obvious ones but it doesa get taken care of.

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            • #86
              Originally posted by poltroon View Post
              I don't know if I have a problem with it or not, just following this particular line of thought.

              The Amateur division, in its intent, is separated from the pro division because amateurs are people who ride for fun, for their own hobby purposes and enjoyment. They do not ride for the benefit of others.

              If someone is paying your entry fees, you are riding for the benefit of the owner.

              An advantage of moving to a standard like this is that it is far far less likely that someone is going to pay entry fees to ride someone else's horse if they're expecting to benefit financially or expecting the owner to benefit from the ride more than the rider will.

              As such, you might be able to simplify rules that currently keep an adult rider from showing a borrowed horse or a lesson horse in the amateur divisions if they work off their lessons and expenses by providing services to their trainer. You might end up being able to get closer to the original intent and also make the rules simpler.

              It's an interesting possibility.
              If you are working off board or are being paid for "other services" like "bookkeeping" it's one thing. What about when Suzy Ammy has her horse out for a long time due to injury and her friend, barnmate Mary says "Hey, how about if you show Dobbin next month? I'll pay your entries."
              F O.B
              Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
              Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

              Comment


              • #87
                sweetpea, the email address to contact USEF is on the first page of this thread. It took them about 24 hours to respond to me.

                I suspect that one reason their response to me was not black and white was that my hypotheticals were very broad.

                If you give them the exact details of your situation, you may get the clarification you need. If not, keep following up until you get enough information to be confident about your situation/status.
                Halt Near X | Horse Bloggers - Blog Directory

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                • #88
                  Originally posted by Linny View Post
                  If you are working off board or are being paid for "other services" like "bookkeeping" it's one thing. What about when Suzy Ammy has her horse out for a long time due to injury and her friend, barnmate Mary says "Hey, how about if you show Dobbin next month? I'll pay your entries."
                  Or you say to a friend, "I can't show my horse Sunday because of a family emergency. Would show him for me in the adult amateurs? His entries are already paid and he is in the running for the championship. You are doing me a real favor, if you do this for me."

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    Originally posted by PonyPenny View Post
                    Or you say to a friend, "I can't show my horse Sunday because of a family emergency. Would show him for me in the adult amateurs? His entries are already paid and he is in the running for the championship. You are doing me a real favor, if you do this for me."
                    Or you say to a friend, "I'm trying to sell my horse, and I'd like you to show him to prove to the world that he goes around even with a monkey on his back." You may no longer want to be friends with this person given their implication about your riding abilities, but that is another story.

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      Seems to me we should be able to keep the old rule, but add a "catch-all" "Spirit of an Amateur" clause. Then if someone is caught in a loophole, they can be sited for violating the spirit of the rule. Given the broad nature of the "catch-all" people could be afforded one or two warnings under this clause before being set down. Of course any violation of the black-and-white rules would be set down immediately.

                      The more rules they write, and the more convoluted the become, the MORE they are open to interpretation. I think the USEF has taken a major step backwards.

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        reasons to ride someone else's horse

                        I've paid the bills for an amateur to ride my horse at least two times. Once I got food poisoning Saturday night and couldn't ride in the second half of my division on Sunday. A friend riding in a different division rode for me. Another time I was running a 1/2 marathon on Saturday, so I asked a friend to ride for me on Saturday - and possible Sunday if I didn't feel up for it. That time it was a girl who rode in my division who rode against herself on my horse. (Swapped one-two with them!)

                        I wouldn't (couldn't) have asked those girls to pay for their own classes, but it was a perfect situation to have them ride a few classes for me.

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          Originally posted by BestLegUp View Post
                          As for 1306.4.a., I think the USEF may have hit on a perfect rule, one that renders the other sections superfluous. Only the unemployed can be an amateur. If you have a job (waitress, accountant, doctor), then you are receiving remuneration and upon riding a horse become a professional. No way a shamateur could get around that one! (and yes, I am kidding- I do not support such a draconian rule, even though that is literally what the USEF wrote).
                          See, I'm not entirely convinced that this ISN'T the intent. I hate to go all conspiracy-theory on everybody's assets, but let's face it, USEF would LOFF to get rid of the hoi polloi who make everyone's lives so "miserable". What better way???
                          "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

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                          • #93
                            What evidence is there that the USEF has any interest in kicking anyone out. This is a serious question. Has there been stepped up enforcement? High profile cases recently don't seem to indicate some deep seeded desire to crack down.
                            ~Veronica
                            "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                            http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

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                            • #94
                              Can you have your "Pro" card and still try to qualify for Young Riders or USET Talent Search?

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                              • #95
                                Originally posted by Hunter/JumperMom View Post
                                Can you have your "Pro" card and still try to qualify for Young Riders or USET Talent Search?
                                Yes.

                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  Originally posted by Chef Jade View Post
                                  Seems to me we should be able to keep the old rule, but add a "catch-all" "Spirit of an Amateur" clause. Then if someone is caught in a loophole, they can be sited for violating the spirit of the rule. Given the broad nature of the "catch-all" people could be afforded one or two warnings under this clause before being set down. Of course any violation of the black-and-white rules would be set down immediately.
                                  I think the wording on the new rules moves them very close to having a catch all. Since they are not defining who the remuneration has to come from and are evidently open to setting people down for receiving money for goods that are not at all horse/riding related, the door is wide open for people to be protested for any > $300 transaction they do with others in their barn.

                                  Unless/until they better define this rule and give guidelines on what the limits of "Accepts remuneration" are, this rule pretty much lets them decide amateur status on a case by case basis in hearings.
                                  Halt Near X | Horse Bloggers - Blog Directory

                                  Comment


                                  • #97
                                    Originally posted by Chef Jade View Post
                                    Or you say to a friend, "I'm trying to sell my horse, and I'd like you to show him to prove to the world that he goes around even with a monkey on his back." You may no longer want to be friends with this person given their implication about your riding abilities, but that is another story.
                                    THAT would be my situation precisely!
                                    F O.B
                                    Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
                                    Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique

                                    Comment


                                    • #98
                                      Originally posted by Chef Jade View Post
                                      Or you say to a friend, "I'm trying to sell my horse, and I'd like you to show him to prove to the world that he goes around even with a monkey on his back." You may no longer want to be friends with this person given their implication about your riding abilities, but that is another story.
                                      Or your trainer or another trainer has a nice amateur friendly horse for sale and wants the horse to go around in the amateur ring.

                                      Comment


                                      • #99
                                        What about the ammy who has two horses in the OF portion of the division. Both are placing well and she needs them both to go in the hack? I remember being at the gate while someone scambled for an eligible ammy to hack their second horse... does this rule mean they have to find someone who will not only hack, but pay for it too? And how do you do that what you pay a dovision fee? ... or do they have to pick one and not hack the other... and how do you do that when you pay a division fee?

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by fourmares View Post
                                          What about the ammy who has two horses in the OF portion of the division. Both are placing well and she needs them both to go in the hack? I remember being at the gate while someone scambled for an eligible ammy to hack their second horse... does this rule mean they have to find someone who will not only hack, but pay for it too? And how do you do that what you pay a dovision fee? ... or do they have to pick one and not hack the other... and how do you do that when you pay a division fee?
                                          They excluded the hack classes from the rule.

                                          Comment

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