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  • message deleted

    Last edited by anmoro; Jan. 10, 2013, 09:30 PM. Reason: received answers needed, message deleted due to screen name being real name

  • #2
    I am not sure if I am interpreting the situation correctly, but the way I read it you own the horse and board him at a barn. Another client at the same barn would like to lease the horse to ride 3 days per week, plus another day for lessons (so effectively 4) and then also some times do 4H activities- potentially bringing that up to 5 rides a week sometimes? That is minimally a half lease, almost a full lease IMO.

    I am not clear where the idea of $125/ month lease fee comes from- is that the lease fee for farm owned horses? IMO, that lease fee is very low for the amount of riding time being requested, and I would not agree to it. In addition to $385/ mo board, you also have farrier and vet fees, just ball parking but I bet averaged out over the year your expenses are more in the $500-$600/ month range. For the amount of time beig requested, I would want at least double $125/ mo, maybe more.

    All leases are worked out as an agreement between the two parties, so sometimes a lease on a green horse may be discounted if the lessee is experienced and putting training on the horse, but that doesn't sound likely with the lessee in this case being a young teenager.

    Comment


    • #3
      My lesson horse leases are also below what a boarder would rationally want to charge, as my expenses are less for board. Students are still willing to pay the extra for a non-lesson horse though, IF the horse they are able to lease is of better quality, has better availability or is the one they have their heart set on.

      It can help to present it as: "These are my minimal monthly expenses, if you want half the use of my horse it would seem fair to pay at LEAST half my monthly expenses." Showing them the actual costs to keep a horse will also help prepare them for the realities of horse ownership. Be sure to prorate annual expenses such as dental work, vaccinations, insurance and such.

      An exception to this is if the owner feels that having their horse worked additionally is of benefit to them. For example when I have had beginners who own horses, but see value in having a more experienced rider take lessons with the horse, and school the horse. Another example would be a rider who just doesn't have time to see their horse enough, and the reduced quilt is worth subsidizing the lease to someone they trust.

      As for jumping outside of lessons; will the jumping still be supervised? I would not allow that as my insurance would not allow that. (Juniors are not allowed to jump without an instructor present, jumping is defined by anything 12" or higher). I would also explain you are worried about additional wear and tear on your horse if it is jumped more than "x" days per week.

      Sounds like these people think you owe them the lease? Maybe a bit of an entitlement issue? If so, I think you will encounter other issues with them. If it is just that they were suprised by the rate, then hopefully you can come to an agreement.
      Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

      Comment


      • #4
        I've not heard of a barn dictating terms of a lease like that, my understanding has always been that the terms of a lease are specific to the two parties involved. 3 days a week is a lot, not too much to ask, but its at least half of the days you would ride, unless you ride 7x week. You already fronted the money to buy the horse, you should not be paying more than half. i think vet bills might be a different conversation bc major medical is a whole different issue. Farrier should be split, after all, she's 50% of the wear and tear.

        So far as the jumping, no way I'd budge. A young, inexperienced rider on a green horse? She's lucky you'd allow her to jump it even in lessons. I am really particular about who jumps my horses, how much, and all that. There's a lot that can go wrong.

        I think partial leases are a great thing, you just have to be really careful and spell out your expectations because, after all, if the horse is ruined, you will be stuck with it.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          M. Owen, Yes I am the horses owner. Farm owned horses have a $125 lease fee and that is what the farm owner/trainer sets for boarders as well. Her thoughts are the horse can be ridden more than once per day since rider is green herself. When I countered with half board as cost (I excluded farrier and vet) the trainer told the student and family that I was not interested in leasing the horse. That is not the case at all. Growing up and riding at many large farms locally, we paid half the board, half farrier, half the vet and also were required to take 1 lesson per week and were not allowed to jump outside of lessons. This is my preference but by countering with this (or other option excluding farrier/vet) it was misconstrued that I do not want to lease the horse out. Financially it would help me. Like you said my expenses average $500-$600/month. With supplements, wormers, shoes, etc... I am not sure I like the position I have been put in and feel guilted.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by anmoro View Post
            I know there is another thread reagarding leasing, however mine is somewhat different so I felt it only fair to the OP of the other, to start my own. I recently purchased an OTTB the last week of October (during Hurricane Sandy). He is a green bean but has a huge heart and is surprisingly quiet for having raced 7 years. I have been asked if I would be willing to allow a partial lease on him. The girl is young, 14 or 15 and adores him. She does 4H and is a beginner equitation rider. Considering he is learning jumping, they did exceptionally well together. The catch is board is $385/month and yet leases are $125/month. They want 3 days per week plus lessons and 4H activities. The barn does not have leasee's pay anything towards farrier or vet. She also wants to be able to jump him outside of lessons. That is my biggest issue. I have countered with other lease terms but they were not happy with those. He will remain at barn, the student is trained by my trainer and I know he will be loved. My issue is their payment compared to their requirements and expectations. Am I wrong for wanting a different fee and stricter regulations? Please opine!
            I don't think you are wrong to be uncomfortable with those terms. It's your horse and the risks ,with the set up you described, seem huge to me.

            Just my opinion, but I don't think leasing a horse that is just off the track and is "learning jumping", to a green teenager (no matter how gentle he is or how much she loves him) who will be jumping him and taking him to 4H is a good idea AT ALL.

            What are your plans for this horse? Because allowing a beginner to jump him when he is green could produce some real training issues.
            Whatever you plan on doing with him, he needs to learn how to jump from a trainer until he knows his job.
            It would never occur to me that anyone would even consider allowing a green teenager to jump a green horse. The horse needs the basics installed by a pro or experienced ammy before a beginner rides and especially, jumps.

            I'm sorry I don't know enough about the monetary aspect to give an opinion but for the risk involved with the proposed lease, what is being offered seems paltry.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by anmoro View Post
              M. Owen, Yes I am the horses owner. Farm owned horses have a $125 lease fee and that is what the farm owner/trainer sets for boarders as well. Her thoughts are the horse can be ridden more than once per day since rider is green herself. When I countered with half board as cost (I excluded farrier and vet) the trainer told the student and family that I was not interested in leasing the horse. That is not the case at all. Growing up and riding at many large farms locally, we paid half the board, half farrier, half the vet and also were required to take 1 lesson per week and were not allowed to jump outside of lessons. This is my preference but by countering with this (or other option excluding farrier/vet) it was misconstrued that I do not want to lease the horse out. Financially it would help me. Like you said my expenses average $500-$600/month. With supplements, wormers, shoes, etc... I am not sure I like the position I have been put in and feel guilted.
              This is what I have always been familiar with as well. I personally do not see how a half lease would be below the cost of half board. If that was the case there is a barn full of horses I would love to half lease right now because the lessee is getting a real bargain! If you are paying the $385/mo you are paying the lessee to ride your horse to an extent. As another poster mentioned, a deal such as this might be of more interest if it was a more experienced rider who would add more training or value to your horse it might be different, but this is not the case.

              I personally would stand very firm on the "no jumping outside of lessons" clause, it is a liability to both the horse and rider. They are both inexperienced and the last thing anyone needs is for the young girl to jump the young horse, have the young horse trip and the girl tumble off. If the family is truly interested in your horse over other available trainer owned horses they will work with you.

              Best of luck!
              Last edited by tua37516; Nov. 20, 2012, 05:04 PM. Reason: typo

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by anmoro View Post
                M. Owen, Yes I am the horses owner. Farm owned horses have a $125 lease fee and that is what the farm owner/trainer sets for boarders as well. Her thoughts are the horse can be ridden more than once per day since rider is green herself. When I countered with half board as cost (I excluded farrier and vet) the trainer told the student and family that I was not interested in leasing the horse. That is not the case at all. Growing up and riding at many large farms locally, we paid half the board, half farrier, half the vet and also were required to take 1 lesson per week and were not allowed to jump outside of lessons. This is my preference but by countering with this (or other option excluding farrier/vet) it was misconstrued that I do not want to lease the horse out. Financially it would help me. Like you said my expenses average $500-$600/month. With supplements, wormers, shoes, etc... I am not sure I like the position I have been put in and feel guilted.
                I wouldn't sign up for that program and I wouldn't feel guilty about it, I'd feel annoyed (at best) that I was expected to subsidize another rider's use of my nice new horse.

                Let's face it - that is what you would be doing, if the rider is not even covering half your hard costs. Since the rider is green, they are not going to be benefitting your horse's training the way a more experienced rider would be, and potentially could set that training back.

                I wouldn't even discuss the kid jumping outside of lessons; that's just a recipe for disaster. You haven't mentioned insurance and given that there is not going to be any contribution to even regular vet expenses - let alone any you incur if and when this green child makes a mistake and gets your horse hurt (at which time they can walk away from the lease, leaving you to pick up the pieces AND the tab).... I would RUN away from what is being proposed to you.
                **********
                We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
                -PaulaEdwina

                Comment


                • #9
                  Unless you really need the money this one says NO all over it to me.

                  You have a green horse with a green rider. NOT good for the horse. He may be a saint but I've restarted several OTTBS and I like to take my time with them and build a good foundation. Leasing to a teen who is a beginning Eq rider? Not my idea of a good foundation. Every time someone rides the horse they are training him.

                  She wants to jump outside of lessons. NO! I was a teen and I remember what I jumped back then . Plus this is a green horse who should be supervised. Unless she's had a lot of experience training a horse in the past, I can't believe your trainer thinks this is a good idea! What happens when your saintly horse decides he doesn't want to jump any more because she's jumped him over and over and over again and maybe catches him in the mouth or buries him to the fences?

                  They want to pay you less than 1/3 of your costs! NO way! That's ridiculous. You have all the risk, they have all the benefits. Why should you subsidize them just because your barn has that policy. Let them lease a barn owned horse.

                  What about YOUR liability. Green OTTB and 15 year old girl? A teen cannot sign a hold harmless agreement. I wouldn't want to take the risk that something happens and then you end up on the other end of a law suit. What happens if your horse is injured?

                  Of course the girl adores him. When I was 14/15 I adored a lot of horses. It's not your problem and it's unfair of your BO to put you in a position that makes it your problem. She'll adore another horse next week or next month. Take the time to enjoy your horse yourself.

                  If they had asked me, I would simply tell them that I decided it's too much for the horse, given that he's just off the track and I'd would prefer to pass at this time.

                  Or, you can just say no. It's your horse. No explanation is needed.

                  FWIW, I have a brand new OTTB sitting at my barn to restart this winter. No one but me is going to be getting on him for a long time. It's too risky, he's too nice, and there's no money in it. I've had my current OTTB for several years and can count on one hand how many people have ridden him. He's not a rental car and just because he looks fun to ride doesn't mean I have to share him.

                  Good luck and don't get guilted into doing something you don't want to do.
                  Equine Ink - My soapbox for equestrian writings & reviews.
                  EquestrianHow2 - Operating instructions for your horse.

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    Thanks everyone. I was beginning to think I was a neurotic mommy by being so protective over my gelding. He has not had the best life and I am doing what I can to change all of that. The horse has a lot of potential and it my goal (eventually) to sell him as a childrens hunter. Per trainer, having a beginner eq rider show him, this will increase his marketability. That being said, I have owned him for almost a month now and not jumped him. In fact I've been lungeing and working on basics (walk/trot). I made it very clear when I brought the horse that I felt the horse needed to start from scratch because of issues with previous owner. If I had the money, I would bring him to a larger training facility, however that is not a possibility. One of my biggest concerns is that the horse does not travel a straight line to the crossrails (due to inexperience) and a beginner rider usually does not either. If she jumps him without working on this, he learns the wrong thing. Something in my gut is saying no, but the repeat phone calls and guilt having me second guessing my decision. As of 5 minutes ago, they are agreeing to no jumping outside of lessons for first month then reevaluate (to see if I become more comfortable). I was quite shocked that a trainer was interested in leasing a green bean for a beg eq and 4H rider as well. I did question it and because of him being surprisingly quiet, she doesn't realize that he is as green as he is despite me repeatedly reinforcing it. While I like this farm and trainer, it makes me concerned and makes me second guess decision to board there. I selected it because of price, ring lights for winter riding, farrier is the best in the area and it is 9.7 miles from my house.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I really don't understand how the trainer can set the cost for a lease for YOUR horse. That would make me irrationally angry - enough to want to switch barns.

                      And yes, green on green is a recipe for disaster. I learned this myself the hard way.
                      Blog chronicling our new eventing adventures: Riding With Scissors

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        This is not a farm lease. The B/O obviously does not pay board on her own horses, therefore her horses cost her less/month than yours does. Set up your own lease & have a contract drawn up by a lawyer. Also, to me it sounds like they want a full lease, so set the terms up as such. For a full lease they should be paying board at a minimum, never mind all the other fees incurred.

                        Do not allow a beginner rider to jump your green OTTB without supervision. No matter how "well" they did together in one(?) ride, this is a disaster waiting to happen IMO. I am an adult experienced (but out of practice) rider part leasing an 11 y/o QH/Percheron cross, and my lease terms include no jumping without instruction. I am completely fine with that and personally would not feel comfortable jumping someone else's horse without instruction. The other part lease horse at our barn is being leased by a family with young children, and their lease is under the same terms.

                        As the terms stand I would be running away too. If you do decide a lease would reduce pressure on you financially, set the terms up and then approach the family yourself.
                        "Choose to chance the rapids, and dare to dance the tides" - Garth Brooks
                        "With your permission, dear, I'll take my fences one at a time" - Maggie Smith, Downton Abbey

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by anmoro View Post
                          One of my biggest concerns is that the horse does not travel a straight line to the crossrails (due to inexperience) and a beginner rider usually does not either. If she jumps him without working on this, he learns the wrong thing. Something in my gut is saying no, but the repeat phone calls and guilt having me second guessing my decision.
                          Bingo.

                          It's rude for them to keep bugging you. Tell your BO that you don't want to move but the situation is becoming uncomfortable for you.

                          It will NOT increase his value by having a green eq rider on him. That's quite a justification!
                          Equine Ink - My soapbox for equestrian writings & reviews.
                          EquestrianHow2 - Operating instructions for your horse.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Just wanted to add having read some more posts - if there is already tension between you and the family before the lease has even been signed, do you think it'll get better or worse once they sign the lease? Sounds like they are already being pretty demanding, do you really want to encourage this? I would seriously be second guessing myself regarding leasing to this particular family at all.

                            I know it sucks to "break a 13 y/os heart" but trust me, give her a week and she'll find another horse to fall in love with. I fell in love with practically every horse I set eyes on at 13. I had my heart broken a few times too, & I got over it.
                            "Choose to chance the rapids, and dare to dance the tides" - Garth Brooks
                            "With your permission, dear, I'll take my fences one at a time" - Maggie Smith, Downton Abbey

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I'm not an attorney , however I would think that no matter what sort of release is signed, someone could make quite a fuss if the girl is injured.

                              I would consider it grossly negligent to lease an OTTB to a 15 year old beginner, especially since she is jumping and the horse is not yet trained to jump.

                              As for the legal definition of gross negligence I don't know if this would apply, but I think if you asked a sampling of respected, experienced trainers if they think this is a good idea, you would hear a resounding NO.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Sounds like a disaster to me.

                                I part-lease my horse to a girl at the barn for less than half of the board cost, but that's because I do not have time to get to the barn every day, and she is really doing me a favor by keeping my guy in a program (he's a TB and while he's really quiet, he NEEDS a job). She rides 3 days, I ride 3 days, and he gets a day off. We each do one lesson a week, usually.

                                It's a win-win situation because I'd be paying full-board anyway, so having a little break on that is nice, and it's been a long-term consistent thing. She is a decent rider (to be honest, she probably flats my horse better than I do), and it's been a great experience for both of them because at this point, she cannot afford to own a horse and show a lot.

                                In your case, with a greenbean and a rider who sounds a bit pushy and unrealistic in her expectations as well as her own perceived ability to ride, I would worry that she might go behind your back and jump outside of lessons, despite the agreement. Also, a month to "re-evaluate" the jumping question seems like a really short amount of time to me- I don't think these people understand what it takes to retrain an OTTB.

                                My advice is if you do go through with it, be VERY clear about expectations and get them in writing. Also, having some extra eyes at the barn when she's riding and you can't be there wouldn't hurt.

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by PaintedHunter View Post
                                  I really don't understand how the trainer can set the cost for a lease for YOUR horse. That would make me irrationally angry - enough to want to switch barns.

                                  And yes, green on green is a recipe for disaster. I learned this myself the hard way.
                                  BINGO!!! That is where I am at this point. When I say "I am not comfortable with lease terms" she says "obviously you don't want to lease him", when I say "it's not that, I just feel this is a recipe for disaster" she says "I'm putting the girl through an emotional rollercoaster". I'm beginning to feel like she is only looking out for her and the students best interest, not the boarder or the horse. She literally just text me and said "Ok, nevermind, you actually needed to think of it as free training though" WTF?????? Excuse me??? I'm sorry but that just sent me over the edge. Explain to me how a beginner eq rider is "free training". grrrrrr

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by anmoro View Post
                                    BINGO!!! That is where I am at this point. When I say "I am not comfortable with lease terms" she says "obviously you don't want to lease him", when I say "it's not that, I just feel this is a recipe for disaster" she says "I'm putting the girl through an emotional rollercoaster". I'm beginning to feel like she is only looking out for her and the students best interest, not the boarder or the horse. She literally just text me and said "Ok, nevermind, you actually needed to think of it as free training though" WTF?????? Excuse me??? I'm sorry but that just sent me over the edge. Explain to me how a beginner eq rider is "free training". grrrrrr
                                    Sounds highly unprofessional to me.

                                    I think you dodged a bullet by scaring them away with your "emotional rollercoaster."

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by anmoro View Post
                                      BINGO!!! That is where I am at this point. When I say "I am not comfortable with lease terms" she says "obviously you don't want to lease him", when I say "it's not that, I just feel this is a recipe for disaster" she says "I'm putting the girl through an emotional rollercoaster". I'm beginning to feel like she is only looking out for her and the students best interest, not the boarder or the horse.
                                      Actually, she is not looking out for her student's best interest and that, in itself, casts a very bad light on her professionalism..

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by anmoro View Post
                                        She literally just text me and said "Ok, nevermind, you actually needed to think of it as free training though" WTF?????? Excuse me??? I'm sorry but that just sent me over the edge. Explain to me how a beginner eq rider is "free training". grrrrrr
                                        Well gosh, then why does any lease or horse cost money? It's free training!! ::eyeroll::
                                        Blog chronicling our new eventing adventures: Riding With Scissors

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